Arguments with daughters

[sunshinesupermum]

I have two daughters, aged 37 and 41. They are both fully supportive of trans issues and I am of course, in their eyes, a TERF. I'd like help in refuting their ideas next time the subject is raised before it becomes a Brexit type issue and we stop talking to each other! Sorry if this is too long but I really appreciate some help.
Examples from yesterday's Wattsapp messages:
DD2: You probably know transwomen who are not out who see and are hurt (on Twitter) and alienated by your views.
Me: Highly doubtful I know a single transperson IRL which obv means I cannot walk in their shoes. They have all the rights the rest of us have but women are losing theirs. Women's rights come first for me every time.
DD: I haven't lost any rights and neither have you. And you have no idea who is or who is not trans. Luckily my generation and younger for the most part have progressive (views) that don't align with the old guard of feminists who are obsessed with the idea of men breaking into changing rooms to spy on their saggy old bodies! You don't care about women's safety. Only Cis women's safety. My rights and your rights are not being erased because of transwomen.
Me: I agree this is generally a generational issue. Incidentally, older women are concerned that men are illicitly watching girls/young women in changing rooms. Incidentally, mixed (then known as unisex) changing rooms were introduced in the late 1960s but soon fell out of favour!
DD: Laughably shortsighted to scapegoat (transwomen). Perhaps they should introduce special toilets only for transphobic cis women rather than try to segregate transwomen quietly going about their lives. You don't care about women's safety.
Me: I care about all women's safety. Unless he has his genitalia removed no male person can be a female one.
There was more of the same bilge but this is this gist.

Oh, tbh I wouldn't engage with them on this! The casual ageism and unpleasantness would make me back off and leave them to it.

Do you typically have such debates on WhatsApp on other topics too?

I would emphasise the fact that trans women going about their business are not the issue. Males are. Glinners "this never happens" article is easily Googleable and lists 115 cases where it definately never happened.

Just tel them if they keep being so rude you’re leaving all your estate to LGBA.

Saggy old bodies? Nice

They do realise that any trans inclusion argument has to mean including fetishist males, some of which even they would find a cognitive stretch to defend?

That's the inconvenient part that so many women just refuse to engage in. Also, because of this modern umbrella term of trans they are arguing for queer theory which is just a race to the bottom in terms of boundaries.

How am I supposed to tell the following three classifications apart -

a man
a man who claims to be a trans woman and is lying
a man who claims to be a trans woman and is telling the truth?

Do you believe that changing sex is possible?

Why do you think a trans woman - by definition a man - should have a right to destroy women's single sex spaces and make them mixed sex, simply because of an utterly meaningless gender identity claim?

Sorry OP. I was hoping they would be late teens / early 20s and there would be hope of sense in a few years but at their ages I think you're fighting a losing battle

They might care more about minorities. Ask them about some Muslim and other religious (not Christians because they're not special enough to question male feelings) minority women who are not allowed to share some spaces with male bodied people. The inclusion of men "trans women" in women's spaces means the exclusion of these women from society.

Is it worth ruining your relationship with your daughters? Just don’t talk about it.

I’m sure there were plenty of people who just avoided talking about gay people’s rights with older family members before homophobia became taboo for the majority.

I think for the sake of harmonious family relationships it's probably easier to let this go and agree to disagree.

I wouldn't engage further.

Just drip drip drip and one day it will get through.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Meanwhile don't make it a battle. Don't back them into a corner so that they become defensive instead of open to persuasion.

They are older than I thought you were going to say. But on your DD suggesting having separate toilets for transphobic ‘cis’ women I’d say yes please ! If that gives me female only toilets - yep! Your DD can use the mixed sex ones if she prefers.

I agree with your children in the main , but some subjects are best not be discussed. You are unlikely to change your opinion and neither are they. So it's just arguing for the sake of it. And that is bound to end in tears

You are unlikely to change your opinion and neither are they.
Agree with the first, disagree with the second. This forum is full of women who say "I used to think I should #BeKind but now ... "

There was a short YouTube, I think there was a link from Glinner's Substack iirc it was called Skirts go Spinny. I could only stomach a couple of minutes of it. Get them to watch that.

Otherwise, just leave it.

@Waitingfordecember or who avoided talking about womens rights, misogyny and sexism

woemns rights are not on their way to becoming a taboo like homophobia much as you might like. Soz.

TRAs are having a right crack at bringing
back repackaged homophobia though.

ugh. all those saggy middle aged lesbians wanting to exclude men. Awful business.

I'd back off and ignore them now. There's no point in even trying to debate, you have differing views. Both sides just need to accept that.

One day their bodies will be old and saggy too, hopefully their old legs won't slip on the urine sprayed in the gender neutral toilets (we got hygiene instructions at work because this was a prevalent issue!).

Saggy old bodies!? What, like saggy mum tums from gestating baby humans, something only women can do? I’m quite surprised your daughters are the ages they are and made this comment. It’s telling of the opinion they have of older women, which they will soon find they have become.

When the inevitable time comes that they have to agree with you then will be your time to gloat.

Agree with others this is probably something you aren't going to win on.

But I will point out I'm 43 and most the women of my age are slowly waking up to TRA and there's a fair few if us women are GC so definitely not a generational thing!

So talking about womens rights should be taboo? Really?

I think what you and your daughters idea of what a trans women looks like are very different. Why don’t you suggest swapping pictures of them with her?

I am sure she will send you images of young and convincing trans women famous on social media (and those who probably do have gender dysphoria) In reply you can send her pictures of the like of Karen black, etc. Include the reports of other men with sexual convictions who have changed sex to be housed in female prisons, and who have subsequently gone on to assault women prisoners. There are actual examples in this country and US.

Find an article on AGP. See if she will accept that there are a subset of men who are not trans women, but pretend to be to further their own fetishes. Perhaps for the sake of harmony keep off the subject of whether TWAW for the time being.

My DD made a disparaging remark about JK Rowling (Blessed be her name) the other day, but I let it go. I’m saving that conversation for a later date.

So what do they say about women like me who have experienced sexual assault, either as adults or as children?

Do they think it's alright that we be forced to share spaces where we are/may be in state of undress with persons who have male genitalia??

Persons who could be getting off on the fact we would be uncomfortable, wary and even afraid of them, and like that power to discombobulate us, even if they don't actually put a hand on me, let alone if they actually do/want to?????!!

If their answer is that's fine. They are bloody naive even at the ages they are.

Sorry OP, they are way too old (and possibly saggy 🙄) to be speaking to you like that. Possibly just requires a "we'll agree to disagree, let's avoid the topic, but don't ever speak to your mother like that again" type statement. And leave nothing to them in your will bar a folder filled with Stunning and Brave sex offender news stories...