Arguments with daughters

[sunshinesupermum]

I have two daughters, aged 37 and 41. They are both fully supportive of trans issues and I am of course, in their eyes, a TERF. I'd like help in refuting their ideas next time the subject is raised before it becomes a Brexit type issue and we stop talking to each other! Sorry if this is too long but I really appreciate some help.
Examples from yesterday's Wattsapp messages:
DD2: You probably know transwomen who are not out who see and are hurt (on Twitter) and alienated by your views.
Me: Highly doubtful I know a single transperson IRL which obv means I cannot walk in their shoes. They have all the rights the rest of us have but women are losing theirs. Women's rights come first for me every time.
DD: I haven't lost any rights and neither have you. And you have no idea who is or who is not trans. Luckily my generation and younger for the most part have progressive (views) that don't align with the old guard of feminists who are obsessed with the idea of men breaking into changing rooms to spy on their saggy old bodies! You don't care about women's safety. Only Cis women's safety. My rights and your rights are not being erased because of transwomen.
Me: I agree this is generally a generational issue. Incidentally, older women are concerned that men are illicitly watching girls/young women in changing rooms. Incidentally, mixed (then known as unisex) changing rooms were introduced in the late 1960s but soon fell out of favour!
DD: Laughably shortsighted to scapegoat (transwomen). Perhaps they should introduce special toilets only for transphobic cis women rather than try to segregate transwomen quietly going about their lives. You don't care about women's safety.
Me: I care about all women's safety. Unless he has his genitalia removed no male person can be a female one.
There was more of the same bilge but this is this gist.

This is totally my experience too. Some of the worst handmaidens I know have zero experience of male violence and zero empathy for victims. Lots for men who want into women’s spaces though. And plenty of spite and intolerance towards GC women. It’s chilling.

Have you talked about Edinburgh Rape Crisis?

"Luckily my generation and younger for the most part have progressive (views) that don't align with the old guard of feminists who are obsessed with the idea of men breaking into changing rooms to spy on their saggy old bodies!"

Is childish, ageist and pathetic. Be kind included being kind to biological women in a vulnerable situation.

I think it's a Brexit one, to be honest.

In our house, we have a code word if a conversation on women's rights is heading to an implacable point. Fortunately my DH and DD are generally in agreement with me on most of it but DD (15) tends to stick her metaphorical fingers in her ears if I go into too much detail.

Here to report that young women and teen girls are starting to get fed up with the gender nonsense. Both my DDs (13, 18) have peaked, both after several instances but Dylan Mulvaney being a big one. Teen girls know when they are being mocked and don't like it. My DDs friends are also terfing...too many male bodies who have acted like jerks to them.

Maybe GenZ will tell millennials off next...it's only a matter of time until they start getting saggy bodies.

Agree with other posters that women exposed to worse experiences under patriarchy are more likely to be terfing. My DD's Somali (refugee) girlfriends are especially smart about sexism and all its forms. They were the first of her friends to give a side eye to TWAW.

My kids are millenials. Quite left wing but all GC.

I also know a couple of young gay men who were very 'live and let live just be kind ' etc. Which I guess most of us are as far as possible? But anyway they were peaked after listening to the experience of lesbian friends.

It's hard when friends and especially relatives are so entrenched. Might be advisable to let it drop at least for a few months? Writing to your MP may be more productive.

after that ‘saggy bodies’ comment I think I would be sending her a different link everyday to try to understand that not only is it offensive, it’s complete bollocks.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/carer-raped-99-year-old-23019650.amp

i feel so sorry for you, I have two daughters and if they end up being as ignorant and vile as yours I would feel that I had failed as a parent.

howmanybicycles they just wouldn't believe me if I told them that they are women hating by their attitude. Because I believe that a man cannot be a woman however much he 'feels' in the wrong body they consider me a bigot.

As a result of dealing with a narcissistic mother leading to a complete family breakdown when I was not much older than my DDS are now I will not allow history to repeat itself by continuing to try and change their minds on trans issues. They won't change mine and they will have to live with the consequences of their beliefs long after I've gone!

What I’ve noticed about my peers is that the ones who are like me have experienced DV/rape/etc and ferociously protect women only spaces due to this.

Both my DDs have suffered - one from date rape and the other from a sexual assault on her way home from a night out. I'm afraid the whole issue is more far-reaching than protecting women's spaces.

However, I might next question them as to how they would feel in a mixed hospital ward where nursing staff is thin on the ground and a man in a bed nearby flashed at them, or worse.

Have you talked about Edinburgh Rape Crisis? No. The subject hasn't come up (yet).

They know your stance.

I wouldn’t agree to disagree or anything that draws more attention to it than needed.

You won’t be changing your stance any time soon.

It gives them the opportunity to change their minds and come back to you on it in the future. No point in getting entrenched. You’re right and they probably know it, they’re just too ‘right on’ to admit it.

Please don't feel sorry for me Gymrabbit. It is misplaced. I brought both DDs up to voice their opinions freely and especially to espouse feminism.

Unfortunately DD2 has a poor way with words at times and I don't even think she realises it. I'm not prepared to die on the hill of trans issues as my normal excellent day-to-day relationship with both DDs is far more important than bad behaviour on their part.

But thanks for your comment 'if they end up being as ignorant and vile as yours I would feel that I had failed as a parent.' Made my day. Not.

Thank you for being the voice of reason VerveClique

Though they are much older one of the ways that helped me with my sons as teenagers (one is gay) was discussing RL situations. Both saw instances of female colleagues one being pursued by a 40 yr male (16 yr old girl working first supermarket job) and the other a colleague who was experiencing lost of male harassment everywhere. The letters response to a male colleague who felt the young woman must like him "as she smiled at me" my sons response was "she smiles at me all the time and I'm gay!" Hes been horrified at the issues for this young woman. Was pro trans after a few conversationshe happened to mention him and his boyfriend had joined LGB! The former son, reported the male perv, who was put on a disciplinary .

Both are more aware of womens vulnerabilities.

Though your daughters are older the misogny will become more apparent as they age. So would bide your time and play the long game. Be a model for your grandchildren who may likely reject their (old) mothers views !

Sorry for the vile comments your receiving about your daughters who you love, very insensitive when you came here for support.

Couldn't add the flowers emogi but sending anyway!

I have a two pronged approach.

1. for medical treatment to be given, a HCP needs to know the sex, not the gender of the patient.

2. We know abusers abuse. There are abusive men who have trained as teachers, priests, married women with children all in order to abuse. Proclaiming you are female is a much easier way to get access to vulnerable women and children.

It's difficult to argue with both those, and the 'it never happens' is untrue. Mention Karen White. You will get a response of, "KW is not really trans" or, "that's so rare" but no matter how rare it is, one woman being sexually assaulted is one too many.

I'd be quite happy with special toilets for 'cis' women, at least they will be single sex.

Thank you twinklystar23

DD1 has two boys. It would have been interesting to see how she would bring up girls!