Arguments with daughters

[sunshinesupermum]

I have two daughters, aged 37 and 41. They are both fully supportive of trans issues and I am of course, in their eyes, a TERF. I'd like help in refuting their ideas next time the subject is raised before it becomes a Brexit type issue and we stop talking to each other! Sorry if this is too long but I really appreciate some help.
Examples from yesterday's Wattsapp messages:
DD2: You probably know transwomen who are not out who see and are hurt (on Twitter) and alienated by your views.
Me: Highly doubtful I know a single transperson IRL which obv means I cannot walk in their shoes. They have all the rights the rest of us have but women are losing theirs. Women's rights come first for me every time.
DD: I haven't lost any rights and neither have you. And you have no idea who is or who is not trans. Luckily my generation and younger for the most part have progressive (views) that don't align with the old guard of feminists who are obsessed with the idea of men breaking into changing rooms to spy on their saggy old bodies! You don't care about women's safety. Only Cis women's safety. My rights and your rights are not being erased because of transwomen.
Me: I agree this is generally a generational issue. Incidentally, older women are concerned that men are illicitly watching girls/young women in changing rooms. Incidentally, mixed (then known as unisex) changing rooms were introduced in the late 1960s but soon fell out of favour!
DD: Laughably shortsighted to scapegoat (transwomen). Perhaps they should introduce special toilets only for transphobic cis women rather than try to segregate transwomen quietly going about their lives. You don't care about women's safety.
Me: I care about all women's safety. Unless he has his genitalia removed no male person can be a female one.
There was more of the same bilge but this is this gist.

To add : just reminded by another thread - Katie Dolatowski. The kind of case that the #bekind claims never happens, and if it does it’s completely isolated.

That "saggy bodies" comment is repulsive. What a revolting sneer to make to any woman, never mind their own mother. They might as well be teenage incels with that attitude and their complacency over womens safety and right to privacy.

I'm afraid my experience is that people like that are just not worth engaging with. They simply dig in. If (big if) they come to you later with a change of mind, or at least, a questioning mind, then fine, but for now i'd simply refuse to speak to them about it, at all. Keep communication going on everything but this issue, if you can. After that shitty comment though, I'd be taking a bit of a break from them, personally.

Your daughters sound like twats tbh. The way they speak is disgusting. I wouldn't even engage with them.

I’d do what @Wanderingowl suggests (in person though - discussions like this over WhatsApp, email etc tend not to end well!) I’d also be tempted to point out their ageism, internalised misogyny and raging hypocrisy. They sound like very naive teenagers, not middle-aged women!

Do your daughters have children themselves?

I had a look at some of the OP's other posts (worried that this was her first post on this board) and she has two grandsons. So might explain why the DD isn't concerned.

I prefer to keep it simple. Humans can't change sex. Men can't be women. If your daughters want to pretend that men are women, that's up to them, but they can't reasonably expect other women to do the same.

I’d also expect an apology for the disgusting offensive “saggy old bodies” comment. Repulsive. It’s always telling when the #bekind mask slips and you see the rampant misogyny on which this ideology is actually based

If I was trying to engage (and as PP said I’m not sure uts wise), I’d talk about detransioners and trans people who, despite being trans, actually also believe you can’t change your sex and they’ll never be a man/a woman.
Twitter is great to be able to see those other views of what being transgender means for transgender people.

Basically you can support transpeople AND believe in sex. Quite a few trans people are starting to come out saying that TRA don’t reflect their pov. And it’s important to respect ALL pov (as in theirs, not yours - if you start making it about your pov, you’ll loose anyway)

Honestly they sound like brats. I’d never talk to my mother like that and’s I’m not much older than your eldest!!

I absolutely would not accept anyone - including my daughters - calling me a cis woman. And if a child of mine used the phrase "saggy old bodies" I would be desperately disappointed that I had reared such an offensive person

I'm sorry, your dd does not sound like she would agree with you on anything, on the principle of the thing. So let it go.

My dd doesn't like me talking about the things that interest me so I let it go. Next thing she is telling about the latest PP video.

I would turn the questions back on them so they have to justify their thinking tbh.

Agree with this. That comment will come back to bite them on the saggy, old bum.

Now that I've seen OP has a long posting history, this is really upsetting me!

You don't deserve to be spoken to in such a horrible way, OP. Ask them to read back over what they've written, and ask them are they proud of their misogyny. Tell them that even if they are proud of it they need to keep it to themselves in future.

I hope they will at least have the grace to be ashamed if you point it out to them. I"d be highly tempted to pass some remark on how you're very grateful that they've lived such sheltered lives, but it's probably better to stay firmly on the high ground, and just state your boundaries on having such disgusting misogyny shared with you. Don't engage with them on this subject in future as they are apparently incapable of discussing it like adults. Good luck, OP. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.

Has the OP been back at all? This thread has my spidey senses tingling, especially the bit about the 'saggy old bodies'.

Not least because if my grown up daughters ever said that about other women, apparently in an attempt to bring me round to their way of thinking, I would go fucking nuts at them!

I find that the discussion seems to get derailed when it fixates on toilets and changing rooms, because for a lot of people using a cubicle next to a man or a woman isn't a big deal.

Where it becomes difficult to justify the loss of single sex spaces is in places like:

• open plan changing facilities
• prisons
• hospitals
• refuges
• rape crisis groups
• mental health facilities
• care homes
• children's residential camps
• the bedroom

Many woke men seem to fall apart when asked if they will be having sex with a trans identified male at any time soon.

Most women are not actually ok with the idea of being locked in a prison cell, toileting, showering and sleeping in full view of a trans identified male.

Most parents are not OK with their adolescent daughters sharing a cabin on a residential with a trans identified male.

Most women can understand why a woman who has been raped or beaten by a man may not want to be in a refuge or rape crisis group with a trans identified male.

If they are not 100% ok with all of the above scenarios then they do not in fact believe that TWAW.

That doesn't mean that they are transphobic, it just means that they believe that biology is meaningful and real. It also means that they understand that throughout history and the present day predatory males have taken advantage of any situation they can to infiltrate children's and women's space spaces to abuse them. Men who have become teachers, priests, have taken safeguarding positions in hospitals, children's groups, have taken custodial positions in leisure centres and mental health facilities, have trained to become nurses, doctors or dentists.

If you think that predatory males won't utter the words 'I identify as a woman' to gain access to the female changing room at a gym, when we have verified cases of men undertaking 10+years of training to become doctors so they abuse women, then frankly you're an idiot.

And that's all before you get into discussion about the massive problems with the concept of allowing or even encouraging children to have medical and surgical interventions that will fundamentally change their lives forever.

I was reading about a seemingly successful transition for a Transwoman the other day. Her parents identified when she was 3 that she wasn't a boy and supported her in socially transitioning. She started puberty blockers before puberty started, and was on female hormones at 14. At 18 just before starting college she underwent sex reassignment surgery. She passes as a woman and is beautiful.

How much of that was her choice? How as a 3 yr old did she know she was meant to be a girl. Pre-puberty had she ever had an erection or experienced an orgasm? Post hormones and surgery will she ever experience an orgasm? Was any option given for producing and storing sperm? Was she able to give informed consent at 14 to become voluntarily infertile?

We desperately need the adults to stand up, push the pause button and make some ethical decisions around gender identity care for children, that won't happen while everyone is chanting mantras that go against biological reality.

"if a TW doesn't feel safe in male only spaces so uses a woman's space...where does a woman go if she doesn't feel safe in a woman's space? Why does a TW have the right to feel safe but a woman doesn't?" Would be my questions to your DD's. If they reply "well a women could use x space" then the answer is "in that case why can't TW go there rather than in a women's space?" These were the questions I asked my "TWAW" niece....the sound of the penny dropping was almost audible.

Good idea Happy little chicken

Waitingfordecember luckily the issue doesn't come up often and this time it was in response to support I give women on Twitter that DD2 saw. Naturally she is now blocked.😜

WallaceinAnderland yes I have signed the petition.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn I know their friends in late 30s/early 40s who think exactly the same as both DDS, sadly, and it makes me despair that they are so blinkered.

The point about transwomen in sport is an example I forgot to mention as Des are hung up on the issue about transwomen sharing toilets and changing spaces.
Younger DD is argumentative however calmly I address the subject. Up till now none of us had spoken of our different opinions for over a year and it only came up as a result of my online support for women and JKR in particular. They are so anti JKR it's ridiculous and quite frankly I don't think I have the energy to engage in future.
Both of them have been sexually assaulted by men and supposedly taught to think critically at university so you'd think their opinion wouldn't be so black and white.Just very ashamed that while I brought them up to be feminists they are kicking women in the teeth by their views now.

You have no idea what my views are on women only spaces ‘soz’.

But as much as you’d like to deny it, there are parallels between homophobic rhetoric and current arguments about trans women in women’s spaces…. safety being a huge one. Are you really denying that people have used the idea that gay men and lesbians could get off on seeing people change as a reason to want them kept out of certain places? Or that they might go as far as to attack people if given the chance?

Obviously this is highly unlikely to happen, most people aren’t sexual predators after all. It’s not impossible though (as I can sadly confirm through my own experiences).

PearFaceBanana DD1 has two boys DD2 has none and probably won't have any.

Yup. This.

Am a similar age to OP's daughters. Plenty of TERFy mates similar ages.

As well as being privileged to not have experienced so much male violence/ maternity discrimination, my friends that don't get it tend to be ones who had rather sheltered, small town upbringings. Not dissing that at all - it's aspirational! - but I wonder whether they feel they have to over-compensate for something in the current cultural climate that places low value on their experiences.

I am also hearing quite promising stuff about teens currently, suggesting more than a few are starting to see through the gender identities of their peers and are finding the authoritarian, attention seeking nature of some of it quite tiring. I live in hope.

I'd pull up the ageism and consider going on strike with some of the "take me for granted" mum stuff if I were you.

I never discuss this with my daughter. It's just too difficult. As with lots of other subjects, unfortunately

Sausageenbacon I never bring it up with them. DD2 had seen something I'd posted on Twitter and consequently had a go at me. There is no other subject that is out if bounds, luckily.