Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's Place UK: Filia event: the elephant ignored yet again

1000 replies

pattihews · 25/10/2022 10:22

I attended the WPUK event at Filia yesterday and came out feeling disturbed by what struck me as a very heavy-handed event designed to avoid talking about the elephant in the room. For what it's worth, I've voted Labour at every election since 1979. I imagine 90% of the audience had a similar track record.

Put briefly, we had 90 minutes of:
Feminism=socialism and if you're not a socialist you can't be a feminist and if you're not a feminist-socialist you're the enemy.
The right is sly and will lie and try to draw you in (illustrated with a video from the US about the right-wing origins of many apparently liberal groups, including the Heritage Foundation) and you must resist any temptation to get involved with them.
The way to do it is to join unions and change them from within, hold socialist women's salons to recruit and inform and get involved at grass roots level.

There were also regular warnings about racism, which seemed odd and extraneous because WPUK is all about gender ideology.

And then the penny dropped. Though her name was never mentioned, I suddenly realised that the whole tightly-managed event (no talking unless you're holding the microphone) was a warning not to fraternise with Posie Parker.

At lunchtime I encountered several other women, all of them furious about what they'd sat through. Furious in particular because of course the elephant in the room was the fact that the Labour Party, to which WPUK is loyal to death, is the biggest threat to women's rights in this country. And they'd used PP to deflect from that.

I'm not a Posie fan. Posie's clear she's not a feminist. She says things that make me cringe. I have doubts about her motivation and we wouldn't be friends in RL. But I went to one of her events when she came to my area and she can mobilise women the left will never reach and for that she's important and valuable. When I go canvassing for Labour I meet working-class as well as middle-class women who vote or have voted Conservative. They include aspirational minority ethnic women. They have their reasons, and some of them I can understand.

A woman I've never seen before and may not see again joined my table for lunch and explained why so many women were feeling really disturbed. These are TRA tactics.
The huge issue that concerns so many of us (should we vote Labour?) was avoided and we were instead lectured on how to be good socialists and feminists.

Was anyone else there? What did you make of it?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/11/2022 12:07

pattihews · 01/11/2022 11:51

But he's very pro trans, I thought?

He employs/employed the Labour policy advisor who called a baby fascist. And subsequently apologised to the 'trans community' not the baby or their dad.

Nice people.

TinselAngel · 01/11/2022 12:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/11/2022 12:12

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Is that the fall out from the onslaught of nazi/fascist/bigot accusations in general or even recently? I often wonder why those who throw out these baseless accusations don't think a little harder on the ripple effects of these actions.

The bottom line is effectively, WPUK or at least their affiliates/supporters have given credence to the false baseless bigot/fascist/nazi smears that the TRA have been peddling for years. I genuinely can't fathom why women have done this. To countless women trying to be heard & to be acknowledged.

JessSilver · 01/11/2022 12:12

pattihews · 25/10/2022 10:22

I attended the WPUK event at Filia yesterday and came out feeling disturbed by what struck me as a very heavy-handed event designed to avoid talking about the elephant in the room. For what it's worth, I've voted Labour at every election since 1979. I imagine 90% of the audience had a similar track record.

Put briefly, we had 90 minutes of:
Feminism=socialism and if you're not a socialist you can't be a feminist and if you're not a feminist-socialist you're the enemy.
The right is sly and will lie and try to draw you in (illustrated with a video from the US about the right-wing origins of many apparently liberal groups, including the Heritage Foundation) and you must resist any temptation to get involved with them.
The way to do it is to join unions and change them from within, hold socialist women's salons to recruit and inform and get involved at grass roots level.

There were also regular warnings about racism, which seemed odd and extraneous because WPUK is all about gender ideology.

And then the penny dropped. Though her name was never mentioned, I suddenly realised that the whole tightly-managed event (no talking unless you're holding the microphone) was a warning not to fraternise with Posie Parker.

At lunchtime I encountered several other women, all of them furious about what they'd sat through. Furious in particular because of course the elephant in the room was the fact that the Labour Party, to which WPUK is loyal to death, is the biggest threat to women's rights in this country. And they'd used PP to deflect from that.

I'm not a Posie fan. Posie's clear she's not a feminist. She says things that make me cringe. I have doubts about her motivation and we wouldn't be friends in RL. But I went to one of her events when she came to my area and she can mobilise women the left will never reach and for that she's important and valuable. When I go canvassing for Labour I meet working-class as well as middle-class women who vote or have voted Conservative. They include aspirational minority ethnic women. They have their reasons, and some of them I can understand.

A woman I've never seen before and may not see again joined my table for lunch and explained why so many women were feeling really disturbed. These are TRA tactics.
The huge issue that concerns so many of us (should we vote Labour?) was avoided and we were instead lectured on how to be good socialists and feminists.

Was anyone else there? What did you make of it?

Hi. I'm not much of a mumsnetter but came on here today to see what you all had to say about this attempt by Labour Party feminist women to destroy PP's credability.

I have been shocked by posts on twitter on this issue this week. The rabid tribalism of LP feminists is completely irrational and frankly, frightening. The LP hell-bent and cemented into their position TWAW, wilfully ignoring the very real legal, social, philosophical and cultural problems with this position for women, lesbians and children's rights.

What to do?

Helleofabore · 01/11/2022 12:15

What to do?

Don't resort to following their tribal actions. Allow them their boundaries and keep on keeping on in the direction or the group you want to add your contribution to.

EndlessTea · 01/11/2022 12:18

Exactly. It’s a silencing tactic.

The transactivists have been levering apart existing tensions - I think for about a decade now, talking crap, retconning the feminist movement. The whole point of these labels is to shame and shun. They need no validity.

EndlessTea · 01/11/2022 12:21

EndlessTea · 01/11/2022 12:18

Exactly. It’s a silencing tactic.

The transactivists have been levering apart existing tensions - I think for about a decade now, talking crap, retconning the feminist movement. The whole point of these labels is to shame and shun. They need no validity.

Soz, I was responding to a withdrawn post there. A bit slow.

JessSi · 01/11/2022 12:26

Helleofabore - I'm a socialist at core, although I consider myself politically homeless. At this point in time, I cannot see any real difference between Tory/Labour, except on issue of transideology. I will vote Tory at the next general election on this single issue and would urge everyone else to the same. I cannot understand these so-called feminist women's commitment to the LP in the face of their blatant disregard for women's rights. Nor can I understand their rabid attempts to destroy any woman who does not follow their line. Truly shocking.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/11/2022 12:30

“I am so utterly thankful for Lloyd Russell-Moyle. He was remarkable and it was really wonderful to see him. I can’t thank Lloyd and Peter enough.”

Is this who Brighton Women's orgs are actually talking about when referencing their 'delicate discussions'? The MP forced to apologise "... for accusing Harry Potter author JK Rowling of exploiting her sexual assault ordeal to score political points"?

I mean. We all have to deal with people we are not exactly enamoured with at various points. And I have no doubt that Brighton is a particularly difficult place to gain a footing in, in terms of women's rights. But if we are judging the moral character of those people who some women are forced to deal with in various settings to secure support or make progress etc. Why does this absolute roaster get a pass & no one monsters the women who are ignoring his very clear misogyny to presumably try and gain some sort of concessions or support from him?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/11/2022 12:32

Posters on this thread may be interested in this essay, written in 2020. You'll see a certain prescience to it.

extract

Why are ideologies antithetical to each other being presented as natural allies? Feminism argues that gender is a mechanism of a system of oppression, that gender consists of socially constructed sexist stereotypes which are then used to exploit women. The notion that because one is female one naturally wants to care and clean, one by nature of one’s female sex is submissive, polite. LGB rights rests on the idea that same-sex attraction is real and normal and should be afforded the same rights and respect as heterosexuality.

Transgenderism/transsexualism, in contrast, claims gender – women’s oppression and sexist stereotypes – are innate, or sometimes that the body has to be altered to conform because of oppression discomfort disorder. Gender dysphoria claims that the person is wrong, not the cultural sexism, exploitation or oppression. It avows ‘change the person, not the system’!

Alongside this, as the idea of human sex change has been successfully challenged and is not widely accepted, transgenderism/transsexualism began denying the reality of binary sex and its importance, which thus denies the reality of same sex attraction. Same-sex attraction is being manhandled into ‘same-gender attraction’. If lesbians can have penises, sexuality becomes an attraction to sexist stereotypes, mannerisms and fashion choices. Neither feminism nor LGB rights are comfortable bed fellows with the men’s rights activism which emerged in the late sixties and early seventies in the form of transgenderism/transsexualism. This deliberate coupling of opposing ideologies is an example of wide-scale forced teaming.

Forced teaming is a term employed by those who work on abuse, grooming and predation. It was originally coined by Gavin De Becker in his work The Gift of Fear and is also used as a concept regarding criminal activity such as con-artists and romantic scamming. The predator will create the idea that there is a shared goal, or an attitude of we are all in this together, we are allies, in order to disarm, gain trust and manipulate his target. The social contract that most people have been educated or raised in – that we should try not to offend others, be polite, be accommodating – makes forced teaming incredibly difficult to resist. In general, we don’t want to be rude and say ‘actually, your problems or goals are different to mine and so no, we should not work together’ or ‘no, I don’t feel comfortable with this’. The shared goal can be, on an individual level, as small as a man helping carry shopping to a woman’s apartment in order to gain access and rape her. Forced teaming confuses our intuition and disarms us to threat. Jennifer Lombardo wrote in Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence ‘people use words such as “we” and “us” to trick others into thinking they are part of a team’ when they aren’t.[efnnote]J. Lombardo, Abusive Relationships and Domestic Violence (Greenhaven Publishing, 2018)[/efnnote] It builds trust when none should be there.Forced teaming, when applied to movements, can be as large as many men claiming feminism should work towards their goals not women’s, or that the LGB should work towards heterosexual entitlement.

Forced teaming is behind the dictate of inclusiveness. It is by this way that manipulative males gain access and can control and change the goals of movements. It is how individual males have entered formerly women’s groups and formerly LGB pressure groups and can both watch what is being said and direct the narrative.

The oppressed can’t form a critique and challenge when the oppressor is sat at the writing table looking over her shoulder. The presence of the oppressor also guts the arguments that are made – it makes them situational rather than absolute, ‘but this one is nice’, ‘sometimes people are born wrong’, ‘he calls himself a lesbian but really knows he isn’t, just be polite’. It opens the door for bargaining women’s rights and boundaries, for negotiating the reality of same-sex attraction. Predators use forced teaming to recruit co-conspirators to fight their battles and do their bidding.

Individual women within a movement can be targeted by manipulative men as a way in, and then as a justification for their continued presence. This is usually done through isolation tactics so that the message can be tailored to the individual – they are told what they want to hear – and a false sense of the manipulator confiding in the target is created, the victim is now ‘special’ and a ‘friendship’ has been made. No one wants to contradict or question their friends, right? If the manipulated individual questions whether they and the predator really have shared needs and wants they will then struggle to distance themselves from the manipulator through either feelings of guilt or embarrassment. They now share in the abuser’s actions.

Read the rest from Dr Em here

Helleofabore · 01/11/2022 12:39

JessSi · 01/11/2022 12:26

Helleofabore - I'm a socialist at core, although I consider myself politically homeless. At this point in time, I cannot see any real difference between Tory/Labour, except on issue of transideology. I will vote Tory at the next general election on this single issue and would urge everyone else to the same. I cannot understand these so-called feminist women's commitment to the LP in the face of their blatant disregard for women's rights. Nor can I understand their rabid attempts to destroy any woman who does not follow their line. Truly shocking.

JessSi, your post could be written by many posters on this board.

JessSi · 01/11/2022 12:47

Helleofabore · 01/11/2022 12:39

JessSi, your post could be written by many posters on this board.

I'm among friends then. :)

Sundaymorningtoday · 01/11/2022 12:55

Pettihew, no. I'm saying that if it's understandable that PP criticises other women because of the pressure she is under, then their criticisms of her are equally understandable.

And I do think social media facilitates this criticism. It escalates things very quickly.

I mentioned women as that's the subject of the discussion. Haven't thought about whether women criticise more than men really.

Hepwo · 01/11/2022 12:57

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/11/2022 12:30

“I am so utterly thankful for Lloyd Russell-Moyle. He was remarkable and it was really wonderful to see him. I can’t thank Lloyd and Peter enough.”

Is this who Brighton Women's orgs are actually talking about when referencing their 'delicate discussions'? The MP forced to apologise "... for accusing Harry Potter author JK Rowling of exploiting her sexual assault ordeal to score political points"?

I mean. We all have to deal with people we are not exactly enamoured with at various points. And I have no doubt that Brighton is a particularly difficult place to gain a footing in, in terms of women's rights. But if we are judging the moral character of those people who some women are forced to deal with in various settings to secure support or make progress etc. Why does this absolute roaster get a pass & no one monsters the women who are ignoring his very clear misogyny to presumably try and gain some sort of concessions or support from him?

If you are clout chasing anyone will do.
😀

TinselAngel · 01/11/2022 13:02

I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes - so WPUK are responding to / pre-empting TRA accusations of them being right wing or Fascist (and therefore racist) by performatively distancing themselves from Posie and calling her racist, in the same way they pre empted accusations of transphobia by platforming trans widows exes.

Wouldn't it be easier just to either ignore false accusations or respond directly to them rather than having to engage in performative shunning of a third party.

Helleofabore · 01/11/2022 13:02

I'm saying that if it's understandable that PP criticises other women because of the pressure she is under, then their criticisms of her are equally understandable.

Out of interest, because I haven’t actually watched all KJK’s videos, could you please let us know who she criticised before she herself came under so much scrutiny? And could you provide the language she used to criticise those women?

I may have missed quite a bit here.

TinselAngel · 01/11/2022 13:06

TinselAngel · 01/11/2022 13:02

I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes - so WPUK are responding to / pre-empting TRA accusations of them being right wing or Fascist (and therefore racist) by performatively distancing themselves from Posie and calling her racist, in the same way they pre empted accusations of transphobia by platforming trans widows exes.

Wouldn't it be easier just to either ignore false accusations or respond directly to them rather than having to engage in performative shunning of a third party.

Or performative platforming of somebody who undermines your entire argument and damages women abused by similar men, for that matter.
(With apologies for quoting myself).

SapphosRock · 01/11/2022 13:06

Helleofabore · 01/11/2022 12:15

What to do?

Don't resort to following their tribal actions. Allow them their boundaries and keep on keeping on in the direction or the group you want to add your contribution to.

I think this is excellent advice for all involved.

TinselAngel · 01/11/2022 13:08

I think this is excellent advice for all involved.
Is it advice you'll be passing on to your south coast WPUK friends?

EndlessTea · 01/11/2022 13:11

TinselAngel · 01/11/2022 13:02

I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes - so WPUK are responding to / pre-empting TRA accusations of them being right wing or Fascist (and therefore racist) by performatively distancing themselves from Posie and calling her racist, in the same way they pre empted accusations of transphobia by platforming trans widows exes.

Wouldn't it be easier just to either ignore false accusations or respond directly to them rather than having to engage in performative shunning of a third party.

I completely agree.

Sundaymorningtoday · 01/11/2022 13:14

See my previous post.

I didn't know about the Brighton connections in the room. When I went in someone said 'half the WDI are here' which I also didn't understand the significance of, if there is any.

I vaguely recognised Kara Dansky but had no idea who the other people who spoke from the audience were. I've looked up some names and am a bit clearer.

This thread has helped me understand why the meeting felt so odd. Other WPUK meetings that I've attended haven't felt like that, they felt much more straightforward.

VestofAbsurdity · 01/11/2022 13:16

KatherineMAcosta · 31/10/2022 23:16

Answer: None of them! Nor was this section of the video screened at Filia.

It was part of the opener which begins with news stories showing that the Democrats and Labour are the ones pushing gender identity policy, then voices of women saying why we should not worry about working with the right, and then my discussion of powerful rw orgs in the US (now expanding to the UK) and why we should not work with them.

I thanked you @KatherineMAcosta for replying to my post, I now have some questions which I hope you will also reply to:

You say the Democrats and Labour are the ones pushing GI, I agree.

Voices of women saying why we should not worry about working with the right - which 'right' are you talking about here? And why is it a problem for women to work with them?

You talk about powerful rw organisations in the US and their apparent expansion into the UK - In what way are US based organisations going to wield power in UK politics? They won't be forming a Government, how much influence on a Government do you truly believe they can bring to bear?

Of the Political parties available to vote for in the UK:

LibDems, Greens and SNP are totally in thrall to GI and their chances of forming a Government in Westminster by being the largest individual party are somewhere between absolute zero and nil.

Labour are equally captured by GI and in fact have become more entrenched as per Keir Starmer's desire to make misgendering a crime and to introduce self-id. Labour do have a chance to be the largest individual party and therefore form a Government.

Conservative are not nearly so captured by GI, they are prepared to listen, they have changed tack on where they were before. They also have a chance to be the largest individual party and therefore form a Government.

So, are the Conservative Party or their supporters the 'right' which you determine no-one should be talking to or working with?

What success have you had with Labour? I would say none since Keir Starmer has doubled down regarding the introduction of a crime for misgendering. If your conversations and desire to work only with those on the 'left' politically and completely dismiss and disregard anyone or any party that fails that scrutiny - why?

Hepwo · 01/11/2022 13:17

I don't think the racist accusations are performative. It's a reflexive habit of the far left to call people racist. It's convenient for this crew however as they also have to cover up their own competitive resentment over money; crowdfunding, merch etc. and personal wealth and success. Right wing women are fair game as targets especially if seen in the vicinity of a right wing man. Automatically racist. Even Rishi, he's racist.

SapphosRock · 01/11/2022 13:21

TinselAngel · 01/11/2022 13:08

I think this is excellent advice for all involved.
Is it advice you'll be passing on to your south coast WPUK friends?

Don't resort to following their tribal actions.

  • my 'south coast friends' do not follow the tribal actions of SFW and KJK

Allow them their boundaries

  • of course

and keep on keeping on in the direction or the group you want to add your contribution to.

  • which all the WPUK women and its supporters are doing
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/11/2022 13:23

Hepwo · 01/11/2022 13:17

I don't think the racist accusations are performative. It's a reflexive habit of the far left to call people racist. It's convenient for this crew however as they also have to cover up their own competitive resentment over money; crowdfunding, merch etc. and personal wealth and success. Right wing women are fair game as targets especially if seen in the vicinity of a right wing man. Automatically racist. Even Rishi, he's racist.

Nimko Ali, an FGM survivor and campaigner to end FGM and ex-Labour party member, has written about her Labour MP blocking her on twitter and calling her a racist for talking about FGM, when she started her campaign to end FGM.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.