Oh come on New Scientist...!

[bobbinon]

You are supposed to be a bastion of scientific rigour!

Ffs

With a previous poster on this about the way this is presented. Surely if you want to be inclusive you should ensure the imagery reflects a diversity of “people who menstruate” as well as mangling the language avoiding the word “woman”?

It’s not just inaccurate it’s hypocritical too.

This nonsense used to irritate me. But this week I've come across forums of males on HRT/E who believe they are menstruating...

Most were simply glorifying in mood swings, meh. But some have physical cramps and at least one had some irregular fluid expulsion of some sort. These are youngsters! They don't know what they are doing! N.B if you are male with any involuntary fluid discharge, especially in nether regions, see a doctor ASAP! Abdominal pain can be treated at home but if it persists, see a doctor. There's no chance you are menstruating or having "feminine" 🤔 reactions to E.

this has officially entered the territory of causing harm by fostering misunderstanding.

The cause and effect are so separated... and yet so damaging. it's infuriating.

The 'self identify as asian' is interesting as well since 'asian' means something different in the US than it does in the UK. Race or ethnicity descriptors have always been problematic though. Now people are mangling the language about sex so that becomes problematic as well. Menstrating women is the clearest term to use here.

Menstrating women is the clearest term to use here.

No it isn't as for a fair part of the cycle you aren't menstruating. Women is the word. Women know about the menopause but we still have the cycle, we just don't have the bleed once menopause sets in. I am 13 years post menopause and I still get severe headaches every 28 days without fail.

That's just disingenuous. When reading something about menstrual cycles, it's extremely easy to infer that the piece refers to women who have a menstrual cycle. I'd say that a reader would do that automatically, without questioning whether menopausal/non-menstruating women were skewing the data.
But if a magazine DID think people might not understand/infer correctly, they could always say 'women of menstruating age' or something similar.

It's clear to me that the NS is running scared of the TRA lobby. Shame on them.

No it isn't as for a fair part of the cycle you aren't menstruating. Women is the word.

Ha, yes, you are very, right

Of course if you're talking about the menstruation cycle, and you use the word 'women' you're talking about women who have a menstruation cycle, not those who are pregnant, or children etc.

In no other study report would they go to such lengths.

What on earth can the TRAs do to New Scientist? Stop Neweagents and supermarkets stocking it? Sue it for transphobia?

I don't know, but I don't think the NS is using this language for fun.

Women that identify as men are still women. If they can’t cope with that fact then they really need help. I don’t think it’s useful to them to pretend otherwise, in fact I think it is very damaging for them in the long term.

Self-identifying your ethnicity is far less problematic than your sex - sex is binary, ethnicity is clearly a spectrum that you can't very well measure by any other means than self-reporting.

My ethnic background is mixed. I don't identify as a minority ethnicity because it is not obvious from my skin colour, other physical attributes, the way I speak or very much in my cultural habits. Other members of my extended family do identify as that ethnicity.

Ethnicity/race is not as clear-cut as sex. It's actually quite complex because some people of my background would be quite offended to be called anything other than that ethnicity whereas others don't 'own' it. Identifying does come into it in some cases.

I wonder what it is about 'being Asian' or 'Caucasian' or 'African' that influences women's menstrual cycles and 'how much' of that race or ethnicity in one's genetic make-up is necessary? This is assuming it isn't about cultural habits such as the ingestion of certain spices or soy products or whatever or living conditions (poverty or wealth, altitude, etc.)?

I wonder how much what is going on in one's head affects the cycle. I was once signed up for a course to be held in the building I had been in during secondary years, which had horrible toilet arrangements. When I realised it would coincide with my period, I dreaded it. But the period was a week early. Experiment showed that this was not an accident. At all subsequent courses, summer schools or whatever, early period. Only failed for the first Ofsted, when what I feared was PMT in front of an inspector, but that was because of the menopause. I don't think it ever came.
Alternatively, during a time when I was eagerly and frequently meeting a particular male, my cycle shortened.
Anecdote, of course.

I do not understand why women cheer this on.

Why, when womens healthcare and awareness of how sex can lead to entirely different symptoms of the same issue when it affects the men ( think heart attacks which present differently and are missed in women more often than with men) is so poor, why would we be behind anything that obscures who it's affecting. And allow the medical field to appear to solve problems without doing anything at all.

People don't wait seven years for an endo dx. Women do. People aren't 4 times more likely to die having a baby. Black women are.

When you can reduce statistics by adding in men who are unaffected then you arent solving a problem you are simply removing the language to discuss it.

This affects transmen negatively too. If a transman gives birth and dies then has the death lumped into the mens stats then even if 100 percent of transmen die giving birth then that's still only 1 or 2 out of how many men they treat at the hospital?. Would that raise concerns? Probably not.

Put in with women it would possibly spark a review. In the mens stats its lost completely. Nothing needs to be looked at.

Transmen need saving from themselves in the medical field tbh. Their sex still matters dont do a scientific/medical field any favours by giving them such an.easy way out .

I did seed cycling properly for a while and it not only lengthened my cycle a little it also completely synced to the moon cycles. I had a weird 6 weeks with no period bar a slight spot on week 4, where it reset to the moon. I was always 25 days and it went to 27/28.

Now on hrt and it also syncs to that.

Obviously there was a lot of chat also about the impact on periods of stress during the pandemic.

I have a subscription to NS.
They published an article about a study of the Covid vaccine in 'pregnant people' in which the word woman was only used twice, once in a quote from the author of the study.
I emailed them and did not receive a reply.
When my sub expires it will not be renewed.

I get it OP, but we are where we are. Transmen and non-binary people who don't identify as women exist and we can't roll back.

So where we go from here is going to have to be inclusive. "Women and other people who mensturate" and that kind of language would be my preference - if my other choice is "people who mensturate".

I'm not sure about self-identifying as Asian. That's a bit too try hard. Identify as Asian might be better - i have a friend whose dad is Asian. their mum is from Scotland. Friend grew up in that Asian country and is completely and utterly of that culture. They identify as asian, and sometimes mention that because they have been accused of cultural appropriation since they look like their mum - down to the freckles and very pale skin. "self-identify" is just wrong.

I get it OP, but we are where we are. Transmen and non-binary people who don't identify as women exist and we can't roll back.

They exist but their subjective understanding of their own existence does not override material reality. Female people (originally called "women" and "girls") exist. Some have trans identities and some do not. We need a word that encompasses ALL of us, and excludes ALL male people, for the times when that matters.

I know that. But this is not going to go away if we force all publications that now write "people who mensturate" to write "women who mensturate", are we? It is here. The genie is out of the bottle.

We can all stand around arguing the point, or we can try to budge an inch forwards. My suggestion in this case is "women and other people who mensturate" because it a) indicates that not all women do (I don't) and b) that some people mensturate but don't identify as women

When it comes to health issues i find things like this very important.

I can't accept this.
I also find things like this very important when it comes to health issues. Particularly, in this case, for women who don't have English as a first language or have learning disabilities. Clarity and simplicity of expression should be prioritised over some people's feelings. (caveat: people with such dysphoria that they cannot read material that doesn't include them in things like 'people who menstruate' absolutely need support; but not of this kind IMO.

Clarity and simplicity of expression should be prioritised over some people's feelings.

yes, that is one of my concerns. Which is why i like the word woman to be used.

But you are kidding yourself if you think this is going to go back to how it was. It isn't. So we have to be pragmatic and move on. Inching forward if necessary.

I am very much in favour of clear language. Where i am you can get all official documents in "easy language" which is good if your own language isn't one of the ones it gets translated into, or you have difficulties understanding officialese.

Or do you think we should just stay in this cycle of "Cervix havers" "the word is women" "cervix havers" "the word is women" ad nauseam ad infinitum?

ok here's a suggestion.

Where i am leaflets in health centres have a little flag on the front, usually top corner if they are in a different language. How about we have the regular one, the one in easier language with a sign for that? The polish one, the Urdu one, one with the Pride/Trans/whatever the new one is called???

So you can take the one that you feel applies most to you?

*general "you" not specific "you"

This is one of the few – maybe the only – issue where I think we need to fight for things to go back to how they were. It's too important for public health, for safety and – yes – philosophically and ideologically.

yeah. we are not winning that.

The same magazine produced an article on how dementia affects 'men' who play rugby union. Men are also people but somehow they managed to use the word without issue.

Honestly I don't think that's the case. The vast majority of the population do understand Woman to mean exactly what it always did. Trans people absolutely still understand this usage even if they want it not to exist. If we stopped using Woman to mean anything other than a biological sex they might be angry but they would still understand it. Trans men would not miss out on any female-directed support unless they chose to.

But if Woman genuinely is no longer a useful meaningful word because it's been too corrupted by subjective interpretations, a new word will eventually emerge because the reality it describes and its material impact on people is non-negotiable . Believe in biology or not it doesn't matter, biology still gonna getcha sometimes.

I already see AFAB starting to used by trans allies as a replacement collective noun for women (old meaning) exactly because this group of people share common challenges that male-born people don't, and they are realising they need to talk about it.