Voting Labour/Lib Dem and gender ideology

[babyjellyfish]

If you've previously said you can't/won't vote Labour or Lib Dem due to their stance on women's rights, have the events of this week changed your mind at all?

I feel completely conflicted here.

I don't feel that Labour or the Lib Dems deserve my vote at all, but I'm also starting to feel that not voting for whoever has the best chance of getting the Tories out is completely irresponsible.

Anyone else in the same vote?

Yes but are you saying that a Government does not have power to amend legislation to close loopholes that harm vulnerable people, whether the loophole was intentional or not?

They have to get it passed through parliament first, they can't just rewrite legislation whenever they like. I was fair in my assessment of Labours intentions so I don't think I can be accused of making excuses for the Tories when I say their plans and the ordinary business of government may have been derailed by COVID.

My point is that if the Tory Party weren't playing lip service to sex is real they would pledge to close that loophole.

Did you read the second link?

5 minutes between my post and yours so not enough time to have read the information in the links I posted, I'm going to assume you aren't actually interested in developing a better understanding of what's has happened and what is happening.

I've spoilt my ballot at the last two general elections. It was briefly exciting, as I felt very naughty (alone in the room and the officials on duty could clearly hear I was writing a sentence rather than marking an X), and I was always a dutiful swot at school. But I felt really empty afterwards. I just cannot, honestly vote FOR any party at the moment. Begrudgingly ticking the least worst option just isn't good enough any more. It's so fucking bleak.

I agree but surely it would be more damaging to Starmer to go back on everything he said he believes in on this matter. He said that some women have penises, how can he now say, actually I got that bit of very basic biology wrong.

Fuck what is damaging to Starmer, what about what is damaging to the country?

In any case, outside of their woke bubble, pretending that women can have penises is far more damaging to Starmer than acknowledging that they can't.

If he had any integrity he'd say, "Look, this gender identity stuff is a contentious issue, we have our position on it but we recognise that opinions are divided, and so for the next parliament we pledge not to make any changes in this area but to focus on other issues which are of vital importance to everyone, such as fixing the economy. If we don't win the next election we can't do anything, and we need all the votes we can get, including those of people who disagree with us on sex and gender issues, in order to make sure we win."

5 minutes between my post and yours so not enough time to have read the information in the links I posted, I'm going to assume you aren't actually interested in developing a better understanding of what's has happened and what is happen

I read it earlier today when either you or someone else posted it on the other thread.

And don't patronise me by assuming I don't know that changes in legislation have to go through parliament!

When have they pledged to enact changes to the Eq A to close this loophole.

And FOJN if you are mistaking me for someone who is prepared to vote Labour then you are wrong. I'm not, I know they will enact laws to enshrine Self ID which is worse than the Tory parties failure to take positive action to close this loophole.

And FOJN if you are mistaking me for someone who is prepared to vote Labour then you are wrong.

I am genuinely not assuming anything about your voting intentions and even if you were intending to vote Labour I would not judge you for it.

I have given the Tories some leeway because of the pandemic, war in Ukraine and the COL crisis but the tax cuts with probable damage to the economy I can't find any excuse for.

I understand why women voters may be torn on who to vote for. I can't vote for a party who will enshrine the decimation of women's rights in law but I have never demanded other women see things the same way. I simply present the information and arguments which inform my opinions.

Poor, cold and woke not thank you!

@babyjellyfish I spoilt my ballot, apologies should have made that clear. Will do the same next time.

I have given the Tories some leeway because of the pandemic, war in Ukraine and the COL crisis but the tax cuts with probable damage to the economy I can't find any excuse for.

I get all of that, but a simple pledge, a promise, to women that they intend to address these things would be better than nothing.

At the moment Suella Braveman has condemned the Sussex Police Tweet but she, nor anyone else in the Tory Party, has committed to take action to prevent male pedophiles from being in women's prisons. In order to take the Tory Party seriously as protectors of women's rights v self ID I'd, at the very least, expect a commitment of that nature. It's really not too much to ask.

I think this is a problem for 'on the fence voters'. Neither party is actually doing enough. I've got a LOT of sympathy for anyone who says 'but this has happened under Tory watch'.

The Tory government have helped by halting self ID but more needs to be done for sure, much, much more. The way that institutions, government bodies, police etc. have all been been captured makes this an extremely difficult and costly process.

Progress is being made though and is at last picking up pace a little. The last thing we need is Labour wading in and pushing self ID through.

If she did either in a safe Conservative seat it's effectively a vote for the Conservatives. She might as well own it for what it is.

How is a spoilt ballot in any seat a vote for the Conservatives?

Particularly in a safe seat where you know it will make no difference to the outcome.

This is my issue.

It feels like Hobson's choice between giving the Tories the go ahead to keep destroying the economy or giving Labour the go ahead to destroy women's rights.

Why can't we have a competent government which respects women's rights?

It feels like Hobson's choice between giving the Tories the go ahead to keep destroying the economy or giving Labour the go ahead to destroy women's rights.

And there's no guarantee that Labour would sort the economy anyway.

Why can't we have a competent government which respects women's rights?

Now don't be silly....

I'd love to vote Labour. I want to see some industries nationalised, I want serious moves to close the wealth gap, I want to see a lot more money spent on housing, education, health and public services. Trickle down from the top hasn't worked. The Decade the Rich Won spells out just how badly Conservative trickle-down economics have failed, and how much richer the wealthy have grown since 2008.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0013xcf/the-decade-the-rich-won-series-1-episode-1

But I won't vote for Labour while they are committed to self-ID or any other aspect of gender ideology and while they deny the material reality of sex. No matter how many impressive speeches Starmer makes, every time he or one of his future cabinet deny biology by insisting that transwomen are women, or that gender is more important than sex, they remind me that Labour is promoting a lie that will rob 50% of the population of their hard-fought rights.

Depending on how close the fight seems to be I'll either spoil my vote or, hard to imagine, vote Conservative. I live in Wales, a country whose politicians have traditionally been accessible and open to discussion. But for the last three years Mark Drakeford and his deputy Jane Hutt have absolutely refused to speak to any women's organisation that questions gender ideology. We ask to meet for a polite discussion. They won't talk to us. That's how bad it is here in Wales. The contempt show to women here by the Labour Party and Plaid is terrifying and undemocratic.

I guess it's like a hierarchy of needs - womens rights isn't at the bottom - basic survival is

You know people accuse this board of being right wing

It seems obviously so when sone are prepared for all to suffer rather than prioritise life over equality

What??
Corbyn had Lily Madigan all over the place, haven't seen any of that kind of lunacy while Starmer has been in charge

Oh, midge, you sound just like the TRAs over on the Feminism: Sex and Gender board who dash in and call women who are fighting to retain their rights right-wing.

Tell us, what challenges are you facing that you think you'll be lucky to survive?

I have no idea how anyone can countenance voting Conservative or spoling their ballot and increasing Conservative chances of remaining in power.

Which is the sector of society most affected by Conservative policies? Yep, good old fashioned cunty women.

Now is not the time to put principles over pragmatism

It's so important for women to get the Tories out. Vote Labour

What is this magic wand Labour are going to produce that fix this country to being able to put the heating on, afford food and sort the economy? What are they going to do that the Tories aren't?

Because I strongly suspect we'd be in the exact same boat, just with women's rights and gay rights and child safeguarding subordinated in law to the desires of male born people, while being required to lie on command that sex doesn't exist so as not to be arrested. And we should all go nicely to Inappropriate Story Time at our local libraries and hand over our spaces and equality like good girls who always put the penis people and children first. Once those rights are gone it will be murder to get them back. Much much harder than it has been to achieve the tiny foothold we have managed.

Any government making it a choice for women between 'hand over your equality based on your biology (which doesn't exist) or feed your kids?' is FUBAR beyond voting for.

Listen to Starmers speech yesterday and read the news.

Whatever they do, it's not going to be bankrupting the country by ill thought through ideological policy and then running away, a la Truss.

They have a plan. I think that's a big improvement on the Tories.

I can't vote. Truss and Kwarteng are leading the country into a path of destruction. Everything I stand for is something I despise - they want to give money to the rich, tear up environmental protections, take away workers' rights...a Thatcherite agenda at a time when we desperately need not to have a Thatcherite agenda.

But I can't vote for a party that says humans can change sex, that says women don't have the right to be protected from sexually violent men, that refuses to endorse the right of homosexuals to same-sex attraction, that endorses physically healthy teenage girls having double mastectomies.

So I won't vote.

It's more about the lack of critical thinking of the leader.

If they can get it so wrong over womens rights (which are, let's face it, pretty easy and simple rights already enshrined in law which just need to be upheld), then how can you trust them to take a sensible, well balanced stance on anything else?

I don't want a leader who thinks women can have penises. They sound stupid and lacking in both education and awareness.