Mermaids vs LGB Alliance and Charity Commissioner - First-tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Chamber) Thread 3

[nauticant]

The Tribunal started on 9 September, witness testimony started on 12 September.

To obtain access to view the proceedings, send a request email to [email protected] about case CA/2021/0013 - Mermaids vs Charity Commissioner and LGB Alliance and ask for permission to join. You then have to provide certain information and agree to a judge's direction in order to be able to join.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets.

Abbreviations:

J or judge: Presiding Judge, Judge Lynn Griffin
AJ or Judge: Assisted by Judge Joe Neville
MG: Mermaids counsel is Michael Gibbon KC
KM: LGB Alliance counsel is Karon Monaghan KC
AR: Karon is assisted by Akua Reindorf
IS: Charity Commission counsel is Iain Steele

(Also the witnesses, PR: Paul Roberts, JN: John Nicolson. BB: Belinda Bell, BJ: Beverley Jackson, KH: Kate Harris, and EG: Eileen Gallagher.)

Thread 1: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4629679-mermaids-versus-lgb-alliance-in-court-today
Thread 2: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632780-mermaids-vs-lgb-alliance-and-charity-commissioner-first-tier-tribunal-general-regulatory-chameber-thread-2
Thread 3: ongoing

Witnesses for the applicant (Mermaids):

Paul Roberts - CEO of LGBT Consortium (12 September)
John Nicolson MP - Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights (13 September)
Dr Belinda Bell - Chair of trustees of Mermaids (13 September)

Witnesses for the respondent (LGB Alliance):

Beverley Jackson - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (13-14 September)
Kate Harris - Co-founder and trustee of LGB Alliance (14-15 September)
Eileen Gallagher OBE - Chair of trustees of LGB Alliance (15 September)

Witness Statements:

Paul Roberts: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Paul-Roberts-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
John Nicolson MP - lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/John-Nicolson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Dr Belinda Bell: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Belinda-Bell-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Beverley Jackson: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Bev-Jackson-Witness-Statement-Exhibits-1.pdf
Kate Harris: lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Kate-Harris-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf
Eileen Gallagher (two statements): lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Eileen-Gallagher-Second-Witness-Statement-Exhibits.pdf

Submissions:

lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Volume-4-Submissions-CA.2021.0013.pdf

(Header format follows the gold standard established by @ickky)

post updated by MNHQ at OP's request

While following this I've been thinking what would happen if all charities had to go through the process of this tribunal?
yes indeed ... would be fascinating to watch MM / SW wriggle their duplicitous way through the process

It's a way of calling out the lie, without saying the person making it is a liar. Socially acceptable 'pants on fire'.

*WOMEN - MN autocorrect is very strange

Genuine faith would involve some aspect of questioning, imo.
That's why I think repeated refusal to justify why you think something (e.g. black people are criminals, woman is a feeling) crosses into dishonest territory if you have no interest in finding out whether something is true or not or setting out your understanding of what you consider your parameters to be (e.g. bread can not become flesh, but if you consider 'flesh' to be something else then maybe you can say it's true for you).

Mermaids are allowed to disagree with us

people are allowed to disagree in a pluralistic society

Yes Kate!

I'm not listening in, so MG may have phrased it as "lying", rather than "a lie" but something can be a lie (eg the moon is made of cheese) even if the person propagating the lie believes it to be truth.

MG: u deny trying to deprive MM of funding or attack on their fund raising efforts

This is DARVO writ large. MM are trying to destroy LGBA by accusing them of trying to destroy MM.

MG: you’re being rude to Mermaids aren’t you?

Kate: yes we are

rather spikes his guns I think. Dealing with people who are completely clear about their aims and motivation when you’re trying to prove they’re sinister must be tricky

KH is much more gloves-off in the latter part of her testimony. It's almost like she's challenging the tribunal to withdraw charitable status on the basis that LGBA have been campaigning so strongly for the safeguarding of vulnerable children.

i might have to go and bang my head against the nearest wall

This exchange (if the text isn't shorthanded by TT) doesn't look great

This does feel like a massive own goal for Mermaids

Kate getting to talk about Mermaids lottery funding in front of a bunch of journalists

something can be a lie (eg the moon is made of cheese) even if the person propagating the lie believes it to be truth.

Yes, but my dictionary (Collins) still requires the original statement to have been intended to deceive.

The "moon being made of cheese" statement could have been a scientific measurement error rather a lie. The person propagating it may not know whether it's a lie or a mistake, but it can still be one or the other.

"While following this I've been thinking what would happen if all charities had to go through the process of this tribunal?"

I was wondering about Eton and other public schools

Good point. I had no idea MM received Lottery funding and now I know I feel a lot less inclined to pay.

Not believing and saying not only we don't believe and we support people who don't believe but also 'we think there are serious harms involved in spreading this belief to children that are not being heard or considered'

is not going to be a neutral act to a body invested in this belief system and its absolute virtue and righteousness.

That does not mean that they should never be challenged or that they should not have to tolerate heretics existing and having equality of access to public discourse.

All of this could be turned around on MM.

I thought it seemed a good time to repost this GI Joe and Barbie "spectrum". It fucking infuriates me as it sums up the regressive and harmful stereotyping Mermaids are pushing whilst claiming to be progressive and enlightened etc. Also a good example of their craven back tracking and rewriting of their actions on social media.

Good point. 'They say they disagree with MM but we know what they REALLY think'!

Agreed. This morning has been particularly hard to watch.

I can't understand why MG is insinuating any strategy re. Becoming a registered charity is somehow bad. Of course they're entitled to plan which route is best to achieve their aims.

Is this because he's clutching at straws or is this a solid critique of a charity?

But much of the situations seem to involve Mermaids doing activities which are a mirror image of those of LGBA.

But Mermaids also has an active helpline etc. which most of their staff seem to work on. They could easily show that they are not just a political/lobbying organisation. LGBA haven't been able to get non-lobbying parts of their remit up and running yet, because of bollocks like this

Yes, I hope this is going to be addressed

Coy again. Such a gendered word

KH - Never knowingly being coy 😂

Never Knowingly Coy.

Bloody brilliant.

I don't think it is quite so clear cut in this case. Anyone telling a child that they can change sex must know that they are giving a false impression to that child.
The fact that they might believe that it is possible to change sex in some magical way that bigots don't understand doesn't alter the fact that they are knowingly misleading an impressionable child.