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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids versus LGB alliance in court today??

1000 replies

GrabbyGabby · 09/09/2022 07:46

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/09/trans-charity-mermaids-appeal-lgb-alliance-status

Not sure if it is today or next week. Do we know if this is open like the tribunals?

OP posts:
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IcakethereforeIam · 09/09/2022 14:23

Link to an account of the case by Miranda Yardley:

mirandayardley.com/en/when-a-transsexual-is-prosecuted-for-transgender-hate-crime/

Obviously the account is partisan but my jaw is dropped, my eyebrows vanished into my hairline.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2022 14:36

I've muddled that, it was Helen Islan who worked for Mermaids that took Miranda Yardley to court, not their CEO

It was their CEO who reported Kellie Jay Keen to the police.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6832983/amp/Second-woman-quizzed-transphobic-posts-following-complaints.html

pattihews · 09/09/2022 14:40

Have sent my request as directed and had an email back saying they aim to respond within 10 days! Is that normal or has the country service gone into mourning?

Ameanstreakamilewide · 09/09/2022 14:48

pattihews · 09/09/2022 14:40

Have sent my request as directed and had an email back saying they aim to respond within 10 days! Is that normal or has the country service gone into mourning?

That's the standard response, but they won't take that long.

They respond pretty promptly, actually.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 09/09/2022 14:55

Pyjamagame · 09/09/2022 10:33

Well, if they rely on the contents of that in court they'll be disappointed.

LGBA = Stonewall, as it used to be
Mermaids school stuff falls foul of the newish DofE guidelines and more recent AG statements
And there are only 2 sexes. Gender is something else entirely
The government agrees with LGBA about conversion therapy
The LGBA have correctly interpreted the EA2010 - Stonewall have not, so very often

"Denigrating transpeople " and campaigning for better medical pathways for said transpeople would seem to be an oxymoron. But I am betting Susie Green can easily square that circle.

Rolling back legal protections for transpeople - well, they had better have some concrete examples of the rights being lost. God only knows we have been asking for clarification on that for years!

Mr Maugham will lose this one. His opinion about public good not being legitimate if it is solely about sexual orientation is insupportable!

And who the hell thinks that reducing the number of charities working for any sector is a good thing? Being scared of competition, sacred, incapable of accepting, hostile to, exclusionary of... not a good look for anyone.

I look forward to the judges summation!

RoyalCorgi · 09/09/2022 15:00

I don't know what LGBA will argue, obvs, but I imagine part of it will be that in standing up for the rights of lesbian and gay people they have to counter homophobia, and that these days the biggest source of homophobia is not the government or institutions but charities like Mermaids, who are telling gay children that they are really straight trans people, and Stonewall, who believe that same-sex preference is a kind of "sexual racism".

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 09/09/2022 15:03

That might be too 'political', if I understand what I read correctly.

Given what Mermaids brief said LGBA just have to say that since Stonewall changed direction there is no longer a major charity focussing solely on the needs and protections of those with same sex attraction. They are stepping into the void Stonewall left !

Nothing else should be required.

WildIris · 09/09/2022 15:03

Placemarking

SidewaysOtter · 09/09/2022 15:29

“do not satisfy public benefit, only about LGB people who are not transgender and who agree with LGB Alliance, this is not adequate”

Assuming I’ve read this correctly and the quote above is Mermaids’ argument as to why LGBA should not have charitable status, since when were LGB people not members of the public?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2022 15:33

Why wouldn't it be adequate? It is a separate protected characteristic in the Equality Act. It isn't obligatory for LGB people to want to be yoked to T activism.

rogdmum · 09/09/2022 15:40

It’s quite astonishing. Mermaids (and others) have redefined sexual orientation to be by gender identity and so are effectively rewriting the EA to try to remove LGBA’s charity status. I can’t believe we’re at this point. Utter homophobia amongst other things.

ImherewithBoudica · 09/09/2022 15:44

Quite. It is a belief that it is obligatory for LGB people to wish to be yoked to TQ+ activism and see their sexuality as pan/homogenderal. And that any decent homosexual would frame their sexuality around a person's identity and not their biology.

As this court case is how they treat LGB people who are not compliant with this, there's intolerance of other beliefs and intolerance of actual homosexuality. They are in fact bringing the case mostly on what appears to be their own value based perceptions: that LGB people should not be permitted to organise on their own basis separately or to wish to have a sexuality exclusively based on biological sex. Because this is revolting to TQ+ identities and they do not wish those people to have a voice or be permitted to organise.

Basically you can be LGB their way and under their orders, or not at all. (Or you'd better get back in the closet and not tell anyone you have disgusting beliefs such as that you are homosexual and that you will be eliminating the entire opposite sex class from your dating pool without exception.)

secular111 · 09/09/2022 16:11

I'm not sure the Tribunal is a suitable place for this dispute.

I would have thought Mermaids would have done better pursuing matters at the HM Courts - Commercial Court

In essence Mermaids is a 'front' charity for the gender surgery industry and BigPharma. It promotes genderism and consequently it needs a market for that industry.

That market is predominantly gay and/or autistic adolescents.

The LGB Alliance, which campaigns as a charity to protect same-sex attraction and opposes the medicalisation of gay adolescents (see ) is interfering with Mermaids business; Mermaids basically needs to be given free reign to encourage 'transing-the-gay' and LGBA are messing-up that strategy/business case. Supporters of Mermaids are invariably dedicated to one or both of;

  1. Same-sex attraction should not be a definition for homosexuality and being same-sex-attracted is by default bigotry and a hate-crime
  2. Gay and/or autistic adolescents should be transed

This is basically a commercial dispute; Mermaids entire strategy depends on promoting and encouraging the exploitation of the bodies of gay and/or autistic adolescents. LGB Alliance is interfering with that. So Mermaids needs a ruling that removes LGBA from interfering, giving Mermaids and the industry it promotes a clear field.

This is a commercial/trade dispute about an industry not being allowed free access to it's primary market; gay and/or autistic adolescents. A Commercial Court hearing would be more appropriate.

RoyalCorgi · 09/09/2022 16:15

It's an interesting argument, secular111, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems unlikely that Mermaids is going to admit to being a front organisation for Big Pharma any time soon.

pattihews · 09/09/2022 16:16

I've learned here that at employment tribunals no one has costs awarded to them and I wonder if this is true of this tribunal too? Maugham has fronted the cost of running the case for Mermaids via The Good Law Project and there's no chance of them getting saddled with costs of £150k of LGBA's legal bills.

pattihews · 09/09/2022 16:17

The more I think about this, the more potential I see for another massive own goal for Mermaids. I think they may regret this big-time.

GrabbyGabby · 09/09/2022 16:38

Agree, of all the legal wrangles gender identity versus sanity has thrown up, this I think is the maddest. It can only be the product of people who spend their days so wrapped up in this stuff that they cant see a) how bonkers it is and b) the risk they are creating for their own organisation.

If i was a Mermaids Trustee i would be stepping down. This is not in line with their charitable objectives in any way. This is culture warfare.

OP posts:
TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 09/09/2022 17:06

I’m a bit concerned their case wasn’t thrown out. You don’t have to be a finely trained legal mind to see how silly it is, and the chaos it would wreak if they succeeded. So why wouldn’t the judge allow a separate hearing to shut it down? Has the judge, you know, had the training?

zanahoria · 09/09/2022 17:09

I have a huge amount of respect for Miranda Yardley, it was her writings that helped me really get to grip with these issues.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2022 17:09

I expect they all have, some are more moved by it than others, though.

zanahoria · 09/09/2022 17:11

Mermaids case boils down to "we represent all transpeople and anyone who insults us insults transpeople"

It is so similar to the way right wing nationalist groups claim to represent their nations.

zanahoria · 09/09/2022 17:15

"I’m a bit concerned their case wasn’t thrown out. You don’t have to be a finely trained legal mind to see how silly it is"

I think because it has never been tried before so a precedent needs to be set.

It is better in the long term if it is defeated in a full hearing rather than thrown out of court.

zanahoria · 09/09/2022 17:21

"The more I think about this, the more potential I see for another massive own goal for Mermaids. I think they may regret this big-time"

My guess is that they probably know they cannot win, it is just an attempt to drown LGBA at birth by making them wrack up huge bills.

Legal bullying

secular111 · 09/09/2022 17:26

secular111 · 09/09/2022 16:11

I'm not sure the Tribunal is a suitable place for this dispute.

I would have thought Mermaids would have done better pursuing matters at the HM Courts - Commercial Court

In essence Mermaids is a 'front' charity for the gender surgery industry and BigPharma. It promotes genderism and consequently it needs a market for that industry.

That market is predominantly gay and/or autistic adolescents.

The LGB Alliance, which campaigns as a charity to protect same-sex attraction and opposes the medicalisation of gay adolescents (see ) is interfering with Mermaids business; Mermaids basically needs to be given free reign to encourage 'transing-the-gay' and LGBA are messing-up that strategy/business case. Supporters of Mermaids are invariably dedicated to one or both of;

  1. Same-sex attraction should not be a definition for homosexuality and being same-sex-attracted is by default bigotry and a hate-crime
  2. Gay and/or autistic adolescents should be transed

This is basically a commercial dispute; Mermaids entire strategy depends on promoting and encouraging the exploitation of the bodies of gay and/or autistic adolescents. LGB Alliance is interfering with that. So Mermaids needs a ruling that removes LGBA from interfering, giving Mermaids and the industry it promotes a clear field.

This is a commercial/trade dispute about an industry not being allowed free access to it's primary market; gay and/or autistic adolescents. A Commercial Court hearing would be more appropriate.

I agree. But at some point witnesses for Mermaids are going to be asked what is the reason for the case? Both charities operate in the same 'sphere'; LGBA is dedicated to espousing the rights and protections afforded to LGB people, particularly adolescents, and Mermaids, isn't.

Because of nature of what Mermaids is alleging, I suspect that the Tribunal will be watching the videos and reading the written material that LGBA produce. That will make it abundantly clear that LGBA is interfering with Mermaids raison d'exister. If LGBA succeeds in cutting-off, or significantly reducing the supply of gay and/or autistic adolescents for the gender industry, Mermaids will be starved of the supply that it targets its promotional activities against. The LGBA is the primary source of opposition to 'transing-the-gay' and 65% of the children and adolescents referred to The Tavistock in 2012 were gay and/or autistic and in the intervening decade it seems unlikely that percentage reduced. So the 'transing-the-gay' industry is pretty big.

The LGBA's concerns about transing-the-gay were expressed to a Parliamentary Committee

The young lesbian’s sense of her body thus becomes problematic. She wishes to assert her physical being in a different way from that regarded as appropriate for the stereotype encouraged by her peers and by images presented in the media. But the mode of body expression she may favour is not ‘acceptable’ and she may therefore suffer from shame and guilt about her body.

In recent years, the result may be that she decides that she must be transgender. Not fitting into the accepted body presentation for a girl, feeling ill at ease in her body, she finds a ready welcome as a ‘transboy’: not just among her peers, but even in the NHS system set up to provide care and treatment for young people with varying types of what we might call ‘gender confusion’.
In other words, girls struggling with lesbianism are encountering pressure from peers and social media to identify as ‘trans’, and clinicians are going along with this ‘self-diagnosis’.
...
This link between treatment for gender dysphoria and underlying homophobic attitudes – including attitudes to non-stereotypical physical presentation – was reaffirmed by comments in the BBC Newsnight report of 18 June 2020 on GIDS and the use of puberty blockers.It is clear that those who have internalised negative feelings about their emerging lesbianism, or whose families are homophobic, are being encouraged to think they are boys, and are taking
puberty blockers followed by testosterone to “transition”. This has everything to do with a negative body image mixed up with negative feelings about their sexuality.
...
Lucy Bannerman in an article in The Times of 8 April 2019 concerning the Tavistock’s Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) writes that ‘So many potentially gay children were being sent down the pathway to change gender, two of the clinicians said there was a dark joke among staff that “there would be no gay people left”.’
(Written evidence submitted by LGB Alliance (MISS0053)

The U.S. sex reassignment surgery market size was valued at USD 1.9 billion in 2021, $2.1 billion in 2022 and $5 billion in 2030. The UK market will be obviously smaller, but it will not grow unless the LGBA can be removed from its opposition to transing-the-gay. Mermaids isn't on its own; tens-of-thousands of UK homophobes support the attack on LGBA and there are plenty of Collaborators amongst the gay community who do the same, such as Owen Jones.

Nonetheless the issue is a commercial one; the gender reassignment industry and BigPharma need access to gay and/or autistic adolescents to support its growth.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2022 17:35

It is better in the long term if it is defeated in a full hearing rather than thrown out of court.

It's better that their arguments are fully heard, and reported on in the press.

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