Trans woman’s victory in female snooker sparks fairness row (Times, 2 Sep)

[BettyFilous]

Another day, another mediocre male taking a woman’s prize in women’s sport.

A transgender snooker player’s victory in a women’s competition has triggered fresh debate about fairness in sport.

Jamie Hunter, 25, became the first transgender woman to win a women’s ranking tournament on Sunday by beating Rebecca Kenna 4-1 at the US Women’s Open in Seattle.

snip

Hunter, 25, from Wigan, Greater Manchester, responded: “If Maria is upset, it is disheartening and saddening, but I’m there to help grow [the sport] not ruin it. I want the tour to prosper. 🙄

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6c08649c-29ea-11ed-a830-74a6c8fbb722?shareToken=b718d32e7db506e5bf707834f039c760

Rebecca - congratulations on your win! Sorry to hear you were cheated out of your prize money.

I take on board the fact that you are referring to snooker rather sport in general. The way I see it is that honesty is key. Either the category is mixed or single sex. If in a few years, it becomes clear that with a higher profile and increased funding for the women's game , women are joining the open category and winning equally against men, then a discussion could be had about making the sport mixed sex. However we are not there right now. The clear evidence for retaining a female category is evidenced by the history of sport.

I also am concerned about transmen being a marginalized and particularly vulnerable group. It terrifies me to be honest that transmen are encouraged to see themselves as men while retaining the vulnerabilities of being female. Right from the start of the sports debate one of my key arguments is that if sport is divided by gender identity not sex, transmen are entirely excluded. I think transmen should be able to compete in the female category because they are female.

I am not against transpeople and I don't hate them. I completely recognize that many are marginalized and vulnerable. I just don't think that trying to deny biological sex helps transpeople either.

"What do you mean by changing gender?"

Jamie used to identify as a man.

Now he apparently identifies as a woman.

This is not just for snooker competitions....

He still has make chromosomes obviously but I do not believe these give him a physical advantage in snooker but they would in athletics football etc....

And snooker has a separate female sex category, so again, an irrelevant post that you have tried to twist to convey that snooker doesn’t have a female sex category that they have now wrongfully allowed to be changed.

You can keep on this twisting all you like. I suspect that the push back from female players will start to build and that decision will be changed.

Still a male though.

He still has make chromosomes obviously but I do not believe these give him a physical advantage in snooker but they would in athletics football etc....

Who are you that you think your beliefs are of such importance?

Can you post any research which backs up your belief?

"Either the category is mixed or single sex."

As I understand it the the main snooker competitions are open to both sexes anyway so gender is irrelevant for these

The women's completion was set up to promote participation so it seems this currently includes trans people. This may change in time.

However. It may also be harmful to change to a sex based approach as most clubs are dominated by men making it difficult for women to practice and use them as I suspect it propagate clubs being male only under the guise of "fairness"

@Walkden You,ve illustrated the dilemma beautifully by your use of the word 'apparently'. There is no way of knowing whether Jamie truly believes that he is now a woman or whether he simply feels that pretending he is a woman full time is a sacrifice he's willing to make in order to win snooker competitions.

Walkden is right in the sense that he isn't breaking any rules - the rules have be changed to accommodate males. I would argue that proves the sporting bodies are deeply misogynistic and trans people aren't discriminated against if they can get fundamental classes changed so easily, while women are ignored.

But thats by the by, all it shows is that we cant continue to pretend that men can become women and it not harm women. We need government across the world to recognise and sort out the mess they've created.

But thats by the by, all it shows is that we cant continue to pretend that men can become women and it not harm women

Exactly. We need to stop the lying.

"Who are you that you think your beliefs are of such importance?"

I never said my beliefs are importance. I don't make decisions on who can enter snooker or any other sports completions.

It's well known that transmen who transition after puberty have physical advantage in some sports and were recently banned from competing in women's swimming events for that reason.

Who are you that I must justify my beliefs to you?

"whether he simply feels that pretending he is a woman full time is a sacrifice he's willing to make in order to win snooker competitions"

Seems like a deeply cynical view. I don't know Jamie obviously but she may take offence that she is pretending to be a woman like she's an actor of some kind. She may be trying to live as a woman to the extent she is able to, but as you say there is no way to know for sure.

The women's completion was set up to promote participation so it seems this currently includes trans people. This may change in time.

It was set up to help women to participate. Not mediocre men. It should be open to transmen who have grown up with the same disadvantages as other women.

It's well known that transmen who transition after puberty have physical advantage in some sports and were recently banned from competing in women's swimming events for that reason.

I suspect that transition would include taking cross sex hormones, not just declaring themselves trans. Any women taking those drugs would be banned, regardless of gender identity.

She may be trying to live as a woman to the extent she is able to

How does a man live as a woman?

Surely one of the joys of sport is the way it shows us how amazing the human body and mind can be. It sends a wonderful message that we do not need to medically correct anyone or treat our body like an illness if we feel it is a wrong match for our identity. ( How can that even be possible?) Rushing children into making life altering decisions is a scandal. If a few children hold off from taking medication to block puberty so that they can compete in sports and then decide on what's right for them as adults I would say that was a good, positive, healthy thing.

It's really irrelevant whether Jamie feels like a woman or not. We cannot allow participation on the basis of how someone feels. We don't do that for any other category.

Exactly! I can know for sure I'm a woman!

"Rushing children into making life altering decisions is a scandal"

Jamie transitioned in 2019 so is hardly a child .

I was referring more to your comment about transwomen who might hold off taking testosterone in order to compete.

Seems like a deeply cynical view.

Well human beings don't always act with noble intentions. I'm not sure why we'd expect TW to be different from the rest of the humanity in this regard. Sometimes, some will be acting cynically in their interests.

It's well known that transmen who transition after puberty have physical advantage in some sports and were recently banned from competing in women's swimming events for that reason.

Yes. Testosterone is a documented performance enhancer in females.

A female taking testosterone is treated as a ‘doper’. Why shouldn’t they be?

Otherwise, they are not excluded and no feminists I know are campaigning for any female not on testosterone to be excluded from the female category relevant to their age, experience etc.

This is a straw man.

"I was referring more to your comment about transwomen who might hold off taking testosterone in order to compete"

I neither said that not implied it. I referred only to the justification given for transmen being banned from women swimming events.

"This is a straw man"

This was a response to a poster demanding evidence that transwomen have advantages in certain sports ( not snooker)

It is totally irrelevant whether they are living full time or not as their interpretation of a woman.

It is totally relevant why language needs to be clear.

Hunter is male. Can never be female. Full time, part time- irrelevant. Stick to the facts. Stop using emotional manipulation to try to make your point.

So what?

The point you raise is irrelevant to this instance.

Those females are excluded under the doping regulations.

They are NOT excluded because they are trans.