Trans woman’s victory in female snooker sparks fairness row (Times, 2 Sep)

[BettyFilous]

Another day, another mediocre male taking a woman’s prize in women’s sport.

A transgender snooker player’s victory in a women’s competition has triggered fresh debate about fairness in sport.

Jamie Hunter, 25, became the first transgender woman to win a women’s ranking tournament on Sunday by beating Rebecca Kenna 4-1 at the US Women’s Open in Seattle.

snip

Hunter, 25, from Wigan, Greater Manchester, responded: “If Maria is upset, it is disheartening and saddening, but I’m there to help grow [the sport] not ruin it. I want the tour to prosper. 🙄

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6c08649c-29ea-11ed-a830-74a6c8fbb722?shareToken=b718d32e7db506e5bf707834f039c760

Rebecca - congratulations on your win! Sorry to hear you were cheated out of your prize money.

At the end of the day it's about rules and respect. The category is 'women's '. If a man says he wants to play with a bigger cue, everyone says no, if he says he wants an extra go, everyone says no, if he says I nearly potted the black so can I just count that as a win, everyone says no, if he says I want to enter the women's category, everyone says 'no'. If he says 'actually I identify as a woman now ', everyone says come on in, how wonderful, we're being so diverse. Campaign for mixed sex snooker if you feel that's better, but let's just stick to the rules as they stand right now.

Let's remember this nugget from Snookerzone article
"She added: Until this year, cue sports was just a hobby, something I done once, maybe twice a week, but now finding out about the Women’s snooker tour, I believe that will change."
This is a failed amateur snooker player taking prize money from women who'd dedicated their lives to the sport. It is cheating.

The facts are speaking volumes. The main tour is mixed but NO woman, even the top world female players make a dent. In the theory that snooker is working in, we should all know about Reanne Evans as much as we know about Ronnie O Sullivan. But we don't.

This is why there is a women's league. It drives the point home that Jamie Hunter, who themself didn't make a dent in the male amateur leagues wins against females of this calibre within five minute if being in the league.

Science needs to be done, but we have evidence of decades of skillful women underachieving against males in the game, so my money is on male advantage. I also wouldn't disagree with Marie Catalano, who has been playing the game far longer than Jamie.

Good luck ladies.

Can I keep saying the main tour in snooker - the World's, the Masters etc are already mixed!!

Women try and don't get anywhere.

Also, with regards to height, age etc. The bird like, slight Ken Docherty become world champion in 1997. This year's World's was dominated by men pushing 50. The commonality is, all the top level players are male, no female is getting remotely close.

I’d have thought it would be obvious to anyone who’s seen a full-sized snooker table and cue that males would have an advantage. But, as someone who’s observed men watching sport over many, many years, I think I can say with confidence that they are not too great at staying calm under pressure.

Oh well done. In your rush to remonstrate, you forgot to do any type of research or even just critical thinking.

What a surprise!

Yes. at that level of competition, there are quite a number of advantages a male will have over females. You only have to think of the mechanics of the game to see it.

The fact that women are disadvantaged in snooker in some way is evidenced by history. We don't need to pin down the mechanism by which they are disadvantaged to see that they are.

IF they weren't disadvantaged we'd have seen women winning the open tournaments years ago... like they have been doing in the equestrian world where I think women, having been prohibited initially, just started going "no I'm as good as you are so I'm playing", did so and started winning. Equestrian sports are probably the only sports where the playing field is levelled enough, where you get women consistently in the top ranks, for mixed sex competitions to be considered fair. I won't go into a ramble but it is possible there is some advantages for a female body and even more female distributed personality traits in equestrianism. Possibly.

It doesn't really matter the evidence is in the distribution of prizes in an open competition.

It is interesting to contemplate the mechanisms and reasons but we don't need to find them in order to justify keeping males out of women's categories where such categories exist. They are there for a reason!

It was a woman’s competition. What don’t you understand?

for me it's not just about physical issues, it's about the fact that women in snooker is newer, less expected - all the other disadvantages that women face when stepping outside of sexist stereotypes. But if we went down your route then there is no reason for men and women categories - should just be one open to all. If there is a women's category, it should just be for women. There was no reason for Jamie not to be competing with the other males.

@KentuckyKate please do provide peer reviewed references for these claims.
Based on a sample group of 3 (my DC) I can say without any doubt that women have better spatial awareness and are calmer under pressure.

....oh! look- Neuroscience News (neurosciencenews.com/spatial-cognition-sexes-15576/) have some research that shows " Summary: Despite popular belief, men are not better (or worse) than women at spatial cognition tasks. However, men and women approach mental rotational tasks in different ways. "
....oh! look- www.inc.com/geoffrey-james/neuroscience-women-smarter-than-men.html ....women are better under stress?
Hmmmm.

It shouldnt even veb really matter if there's an advantage in snooker or not.

Its just the height of selfishnessand entitlement that we now have mens sport amd mixed sport.

Why can't women have their own sports. Piss off out of them.males.

Agree with all this.

If I identify as a dog I wonder if I can enter myself for Crufts?

Actually, thinking about it, I'm not sure that I'd fair that well in the agility competition. Maybe I could just scamper up and down and win the audiences hearts (I'd wear a furry suit with floppy ears and everything.)🐩

anotherbrewplease as we are going for anecdote my DP is 5'6 too and I can bet he is stronger and faster than you. Despite being a middle aged man who doesn't train too much he regularly places alongside elite women. All my training this week has been scrapped due a blood bath period and pain, something a TW will never have to deal with.

I think that this is rather interesting.

FionaMacCool, your link regarding spatial awareness was mental rotations testing. It is interesting as I have seen studies that show male advantage in MRT. I also used to work in a mapping company and there was studies we knew about 20 years ago. So, it is interesting to see this paper you linked up.

I did a very quick search, because to me, MRT is not quite the spatial awareness that I thought KentuckyKate was referring to. I assumed that angles and pathways etc was the spatial awareness they were referring to. And in the top results was this study.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4304985/

Sex differences in spatial navigation and perception in human adolescents and emerging adults

25 November 2014

Jennifer Tropp Sneider , Derek A. Hamilton, Julia E. Cohen-Gilbert, David J. Crowley, Isabelle M. Rosso, and Marisa M. Silveria

They used both the MRT and the Water Maze Test and found sex based differences in both. But, particularly males performed better at the Water Maze Test (slightly in younger males, but significantly in adult males)

I am thinking that breathing may impact on very fine aiming skills between male and female too. Larger lung capacity in males could give males a longer time between breaths to make fine changes to accuracy for that level of competition. I wonder if that also would play a part in this.

Do you think that all sports should be mixed sex?
Currently equestrian sports are but most others aren't. Do you there is a reason most sports separate humans by sex?

I lived in a village with a social club when I was young and women were not allowed to play snooker. In case we ripped the baize, apparently.

No doubt snooker tables are designed with the default body of the male human in mind, like so much else in our world. That alone disadvantages most females.

Quite - it is astonishing how ready some are to talk women down...

My anecdata is that when I met my partner he weighed 3 stone less than me, smoked weed and did no exercise. I was tall, slim, toned, into running and the gym. We used to wrestle for fun and he beat me every single time. It was a big shock because I'd assumed it was anti-feminist to know that males were physically stronger. So I had sort of "unknown" that fact. I was absolutely certain I'd beat him - my muscles really bulk up when I'm fit and he is made of string - but I never, ever could.

I realise in hindsight that I had never been exposed to actual feminist thought. Just a confusing early 21st century mix of lad culture, "girl power" and queer theory.

I don't know the specifics of that example.

However many physical differences exist between female and male humans.

I don't believe that acknowledging them is "talking women down". All humans have equal worth, regardless of physical difference.

I want to work towards a society where bigger and stronger don't automatically equal better. I believe in equity, which is equality of outcome rather than simply equality of opportunity.

CatherinaJTV

Are you claiming that there are no physical advantages that males could have over females in snooker?

Or are you able to access peer reviewed studies that show there is no sex difference in spatial awareness (to which as I posted above, I am referring to that of direct path choices not Mental rotation aspects). Because if you have a study in mind, please post it so we can see that it is indeed "talking women down".

But the evidence is seen every year. How do you explain that women haven't broken into the progressing levels of the main tour games?

Woman aren't 'nearly making it'.

Snooker is dominated by experienced pros, like 40+ year old Ronnie O Sullivan. Reanne Evans and Marie Catalano have both been playing for a couple of decades too.

How do you explain that experienced female pros haven't made it and we don't know their names?

Womens divisions in sports do not exist because of how women feel/dress/style their hair/do their make up.

Womens divisions in sport exist because of the biological differences that make it almost impossible for them to have a chance in a contest against biological men.

Men cannot change their biological reality even if they decide they don't want to present as a man, so there is never a good reason for them to take part in womens sports.
The reason they don't belong in womens sports will always exist & drugs/surgery/ideology do not change that.

@TwoLeftSocksWithHoles
😂😂😂

Rebecca - congratulations on your win! Sorry to hear you were cheated out of your prize money.

Absolutely!