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Original poster

Let Women Swim

99 replies

IcakethereforeIam · 26/08/2022 00:00

Just seen this article on the Critic about women only swimming sessions. Apparently, there's going to be a meeting at the Ladies Pond in London on Saturday 27th August regarding the decision to let men self I'd into the space.

I've not seen a thread on this.

thecritic.co.uk/let-women-swim/

OP posts:
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7
Original poster
IcakethereforeIam · 28/08/2022 20:03

Rightsraptor · 28/08/2022 19:23

If there were men guarding the men's pond to stop any women entering we need some friendly (to us) transmen to try to gain entry. If they aren't allowed in what possible justification could there be when the boot's on the other foot? If tw must be allowed into the women's pond then tm must also be allowed in the men's.

Aren't there some tm youtubers, perhaps this could be put to them on twitter. If there's anyone they haven't blocked.

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 28/08/2022 22:27

At this point I think that its worth pointing out the Edward Lord was forced to recuse himself from an employment tribunal against a GC woman.

Rightsraptor · 28/08/2022 22:37

@IcakethereforeIam I am not on Twitter, or anywhere else any longer, so I can't activate anything much. But I might see if I can delve around in the doings of 'Mx Edward Lord OBE' (I think that honour is the correct one. Well, not correct as I'd take it away from them but you know what I mean).

TheBiologyStupid · 28/08/2022 23:01

FrippEnos · 28/08/2022 22:27

At this point I think that its worth pointing out the Edward Lord was forced to recuse himself from an employment tribunal against a GC woman.

Indeed! www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4574315-tribunal-tweets-maya-is-tweeting-from-the-kirstie-higgs-recusal-hearing

SweetFannyAdamsDog · 28/08/2022 23:08

Signed the petition

JellySaurus · 28/08/2022 23:59

Rightsraptor · 28/08/2022 19:23

If there were men guarding the men's pond to stop any women entering we need some friendly (to us) transmen to try to gain entry. If they aren't allowed in what possible justification could there be when the boot's on the other foot? If tw must be allowed into the women's pond then tm must also be allowed in the men's.

And allowed to swim in Speedos or shorts, regardless whether they have had any surgery.

DadJoke · 29/08/2022 00:08

Trans men, as they are men, are allowed to use the men’s pool. Trans women, as they are women, are allowed to use the women’s pool. This has been officially and legally the case since 2010. While it’s legal to provide separate spaces based on sex not gender, it has to be a proportionate way of reaching a legitimate end, and it’s up to the organisation whether they wish to do this. They don’t, and I suspect there would be a legal challenge if they tried some so regressive.

Penguintears · 29/08/2022 00:16

Please explain what makes a transman a man and a transwomen a women?

DistantStrimmers · 29/08/2022 00:23

There was:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/3262274-Man-Friday
And the Daily Mail report at the time:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5780623/Female-protesters-break-men-lido-leap-pool.html

Sample quotes from the DM article:
"Mr John, from Hackney, said: 'They're saying, 'I want to identify as a man today'. That's not how this works. Women have their own female-only pool, we have ours and if you want to swim with men then go to the mixed pond."

"One man shouted: 'They aren't men!' Another said: 'This is ludicrous. If I turned up at the female-only pond and claimed to be a woman I would never get let in. This is our space and that's how it should stay.'"

"PC Barry Macefield of Hampstead Heath constabulary, said: 'They've been peaceful, when we've asked them to leave they've left so we've got no issues with that.

'There were some men annoyed because they felt their privacy had been invaded and some who were concerned about photography.

'They've had a chance to make their point which they have done peacefully – but you can't enter a facility designated for the opposite sex, and if this occurs with men in the women's ponds we'd deal with that too.' He added: 'The rules need clarity.'

So...

Live4weekend · 29/08/2022 00:25

So what about those that cannot swim in mixed sex spaces.

All pools are now essentially mixed sex, but I imagine it's felt most in the womesn pond.

Do the council have any details of how many women now self exclude because it's no longer single sex. I suspect they would be shocked as they have not given any consideration to these women at all.

I get that they may still chose to be 'inclusive to TW' above all else, but surely they can't make big decisions like this without an impact analysis.

(I know the answer - women do not deserve anything. TW are the only consideration here.

RhannionKPSS · 29/08/2022 00:38

DadJoke · 29/08/2022 00:08

Trans men, as they are men, are allowed to use the men’s pool. Trans women, as they are women, are allowed to use the women’s pool. This has been officially and legally the case since 2010. While it’s legal to provide separate spaces based on sex not gender, it has to be a proportionate way of reaching a legitimate end, and it’s up to the organisation whether they wish to do this. They don’t, and I suspect there would be a legal challenge if they tried some so regressive.

Stop insulting our intelligence, trans men are women otherwise they would be men, same with trans women, they would simply be women. Men & women don’t need any prefixes.

DistantStrimmers · 29/08/2022 00:40

UK Law:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

This paragraph contains exceptions to the general prohibition of sex discrimination to allow the provision of single-sex services.

734.Single sex services are permitted where:
...
they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa);
...

This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services.

740.This paragraph replaces a similar provision in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.
Example

A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

So yes, it is lawful in UK law to exclude male-to-female transsexual persons in some important circumstances. The law says so.

SD1978 · 29/08/2022 00:41

And yet when there was a protest and women self id'd a few years ago into the male swim area they were removed. The double standard is ridiculous and there is a mixed pond for all. Self id does not need to come into this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/08/2022 00:43

This has been officially and legally the case since 2010.

It's got zero to do with the Equality Act. There is no mandate for inclusion of trans people in opposite sex spaces.

RhannionKPSS · 29/08/2022 00:43

Dadjoke , I think you should consider changing your name to BadJoke...except your complete disregard, contempt & disrespect for the rights of women and girls is anything but funny, it’s quite pathetic.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/08/2022 00:44

it’s legal to provide separate spaces based on sex not gender, it has to be a proportionate way of reaching a legitimate end

You completely misunderstand what single sex exemptions are for.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/08/2022 00:45

Poorly mansplaining laws and women's rights is certainly funny.

RhannionKPSS · 29/08/2022 00:45

SD1978 · 29/08/2022 00:41

And yet when there was a protest and women self id'd a few years ago into the male swim area they were removed. The double standard is ridiculous and there is a mixed pond for all. Self id does not need to come into this.

Yes DadJoke why were the women removed from the men’s pond when those women “ identified “ as men that day? Do tell us what the difference was.

GertrudeKerfuffle · 29/08/2022 00:46

Penguintears · 29/08/2022 00:16

Please explain what makes a transman a man and a transwomen a women?

You misunderstand, Dadjoke is not here to be questioned by the likes of us. Dadjoke has spoken and we all must take heed.

DistantStrimmers · 29/08/2022 00:48

The law allows exclusion of trans men from women-only spaces in certain circumstances.

Unfortunately, organisations can, and do, choose not to support women's rights.

Sadly, it's only an "allow", not an "enforce".

So women's rights rely on "grace and favour", and whim. And get binned.

DistantStrimmers · 29/08/2022 00:50

Damn, that should have been "trans women", not "trans men"!

This vocabulary is purposefully designed to confound!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/08/2022 00:50

I think your version was more accurate, personally.

DistantStrimmers · 29/08/2022 00:52

Quite possibly!

RubyTrees · 29/08/2022 10:12

DOBARDAN · 28/08/2022 20:01

I've signed the petition, it was easy to find, I just googled 'Require swimming venues to maintain single sex' as a PP had suggested. The petition came up straightaway.

Let's get this to 10,000 at least!

DadJoke · 29/08/2022 10:35

DistantStrimmers · 29/08/2022 00:40

UK Law:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

This paragraph contains exceptions to the general prohibition of sex discrimination to allow the provision of single-sex services.

734.Single sex services are permitted where:
...
they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa);
...

This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services.

740.This paragraph replaces a similar provision in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.
Example

A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

So yes, it is lawful in UK law to exclude male-to-female transsexual persons in some important circumstances. The law says so.

Yes — they are “permitted” to do so - if it’s a proportionate. They are not “obliged” to. This is how the 2010 Act changes things.