Is there any sensible advice on how to parent tomboys in the current climate?

[Neithhotep]

I have a 10-year old daughter. Short hair, plays football, wears her brother's hand-me-downs, don't think she owns a dress.

Over the next few years, as she and her peers get access to social media, she will be inundated with the suggestion that SHE MIGHT BE A BOY. Her peers will suggest it. Her teachers and authority figures will support it. She will get her period and her body will start to change and she will be asked if she's comfortable with the changes, because if not, she might be a boy! What young teen would be strong minded enough to say no?

I feel as though my baby is about to run a gauntlet, and I'm not completely sure how to parent her through it.

I think you are right to be concerned. My daughter had her hair cut short and wore trousers for year 7. She got asked if she was trans. There are some 15 girls in her year who are trans or non binary.

We have always talked about the struggles of women as we came from domestic abuse. When you talk about women's rights it is so obvious how sexist it all is.

My advice would be to drip feed her stuff about biological reality. Girls in Afghanistan can no longer get an education after age of 11, but they can't say they are boys to get an education.

Women and girls are abused because they are female. I always call out sexist sterotypes. My daughter used to want to be a pilot and the boys would say she couldn't because she was a girl so we discussed it and found a way to shut them down by asking them 'why do I need a penis to pilot a plane?'. She loved that response and it soon shut them up.

Also be frank and honest about puberty. My daughter (awaiting autism assessment) can now tell me that she hated the thought of puberty because it meant she was growing up and she didn't want to grow up. She didn't cope at all when she got her first period. She also told me she hated her breasts and twice tied a belt around them to try and get rid of them. This wasn't about wanting to be a boy just not wanting to grow up. Yet if she and I had been that way inclined she could have come out as trans.

My diagnosed autistic daughter took it all in her stride which was a surprise. I showed her my period pad as my blood is quite dark and old so she knew what to expect. Hers is this colour too so that helped as she might have thought it was poo.

A really good body positive book that is good to dip into is this one attached The Girl Guide.

My girls are both gender critical and we watch a motif stuff together that is GC. We also watch a lot of gender woo and engage our critical thinking to dismiss it. My eldest daughter is really well read in the subject. She is 14 and I keep buying all the books but never get round to reading them but she does and is a fantastic girl to chat with.

Isn't it crazy we have to worry about this! My 12 yo DD has very long hair but is keen to get a very short cut which is fine by me but I worry others around her will start trying to project an idea on her that she might be trans. One of her best friends has started using opposite sex pronouns and changed her name to a boy sounding name. We've been talking about whether her friend might be gay but feels trans is more acceptable and how DD can support her to feel good about herself as she is. I feel we are in a good place where she can think critically but I still fear that external pressure.

I think we could/should write a short MN Guide To Parenting 'Tomboys' for the MN parenting section.

It is a social contagion so parents are right to be concerned. The girls in our school all gang out together in small groups. There is no way that is statistically possible. Girls are over represented and I'm mad at schools for allowing it.
Good short film on the topic. The Call is Coming From Inside the House

I totally get this concern and I think your worry is justified. Although it's not just "tom boys" but girls who then find themselves unable/unwilling to do things because that's "for boys".

We just keep banging on and on and on, whenever it comes up, that girls and boys can do, wear, be, think etc in any way they like. What defines them as boy/girl is the biological reality of their bodies, but everything else is up for grabs.

And yet, it is in my area of the UK.

And don't forget that the children themselves are talking about it. Rather constantly in some groups.

If your child does turn out to be a boy

Children don’t ‘turn out’ to be a boy or a girl. It’s not the same as turning out to be a teacher or a doctor, ffs!

How is it possible to live in a world where such nonsense is parroted with a straight face? It makes me so angry, that and the awful old-fashioned stereotyping of males and females that has come with this supposedly oh so progressive form of activism.

This is what I want to say to today’s young people: Wear what you want. Love who you want. Have the hobbies you want; do the sports you want; have the career you want. Have the name you want. All this you can have and do and be no matter what genitals you have. Don’t subscribe to the old sexist stereotypes that there are ‘boy modes’ and ‘girl modes’ (with no thanks at all to Eddie Izzard for coining those phrases).

No child is born into the wrong body. Yet, we do continue to see this popping up constantly still.

Watching with interest as I have a DD like the OP.

I actually find the label 'tomboy' handy in circumstances where people who don't know her and are trying to work out if she's a girl/boy/trans. Tomboy states 'she is a girl who does not conform to gender stereotypes'. Whilst I'd prefer society to be without regressive stereotypes of what a girl and boy is, I prefer this label to defend who she is otherwise there is a void which I'm afraid will be filled with 'born in the wrong body' shyte.

I could have written your post a couple of years ago. My daughter was a tomboy with short hair and mainly male friends, and had been 'questioned' about her gender on a few occasions.... and sure enough, some time around the end of primary school we got a call from her school saying that she wanted to identify as a boy.
We spoke to the school (clueless and well-meaning - I think I was pretty successful in diverting them from mermaids to transgender trend)... but once she got to secondary school it was clear that they were well and truly stone-walled, and there were lots of (clearly traumatised, post-pandemic) young teens 'coming out' as trans or non-binary and being cheered on by the school, and I'm not sure they were so receptive to my concerns...
In terms of what I said to her about it - I think not that much tbh... she knew that I thought the whole thing was a bit silly and that I wasn't going to refer to her as 'he', but if she could persuade her friends to do so, then that was not really any of my business - though I might roll my eyes if I witnessed it. I continued to allow her to dress as she pleased (I'd been buying her boys' boxers for years without batting an eyelid because she found them comfier), to encourage her to explore a range of interests and 'be whoever she wanted to be' within the confines of reality.
It passed. I know it doesn't for everyone, but I think for many it is just the latest trend - a style to try on until you move onto something else. She's nearly 14 now and a couple of months ago I mentioned it one evening (the first time for ages that it had come up), and she quickly assured me that she had seen sense... she actually commented that her and her best friend had been bemoaning the fact that their parents were such intolerant bigots (they'd probably overheard some of our terfy conversations) when one of them had wondered aloud whether we might have a point... and the scales fell from their eyes.

I noticed a thread on the hell hole of twitter yesterday, by a man, talking about the lack of women in gaming, then called us "non-men". He also used the word "man", no trouble at all with that! He genuinely couldn't see the issue with how offensive that was then called all the women objecting terfs and had a blocking spree.

THAT is offensive. When you don't use the word woman to describe the female sex class but instead call us people with a cervix, bleeders, vagina havers - THAT is reducing us to our genitals, THAT is offensive. Woman is not.

Having to consistently alter your language at a moments notice to someone else's ever changing personality gives that someone a sense of power that should not be wielded; the power to be the most centered and the most important person in the room. The power to demand constant validation and affirmation through compelling others language, and the underlying threat of fallout and attack should you not comply.

Growing up is a hormonal minefield as it is. If you're outside the norm, not very popular etc, this idea that you can change how you identify and that makes you cool and interesting, and gives you that power I mentioned above. That is going to be very very appealing. I was that teenager, awkward, with feminine and masculine interests. I was desperate to be liked. If I thought non binary would do it, I'd be on it like a shot.

But we're all non binary. It wouldn't mean I was different and therefore special. I needed to find my place in the world, not demand the world adjusted itself to me.

Anyway, (after that essay!) DD is 4 so I'm hoping this issue will be in the long grass by the time she hits her teens. But I would be limiting and keeping a strict eye on social media, having chats about the reality of sex, peer pressure, and about how she does not have to limit herself because her sex is female; there is no right way to be female, and having stereotypically masculine interests does not mean she has to call herself a boy. I would encourage her to push the boundaries of what it is to be a girl/woman, not regress into a box labelled boy/man. And that of course, you cannot change your sex.

We've fortunately got past this to some extent now, but from the ages of 10-15 my DD was frequently mistaken for a boy. Short hair, masculine clothes, no makeup, tall and flat chested. She thought it was hilarious. She never played with dolls or any traditionally girly toys (actually got really angry when someone gave her a doll as a present when she was about 4) and has always forged her own path.

My MIL had just retired as a CAMHS nurse dealing with teens and when DD was about 11, had taken me to one side, very concerned, and made some pointed comments about the girls they were seeing in clinic (she said there had been a clear shift - when she first started working they had seen patients who had the desire to be the opposite sex, but it was always men, never girls, and it was incredibly rare. Then there was an explosion of teen girls, nearly all autistic, presenting with the unshakeable belief that all their problems with making friends and socialising would be somehow magically fixed if they changed sex. She said one key thing they all had in common was unsupervised access to the internet. When they could persuade parents to take the internet away, the girls very frequently desisted. They didn't become girly, but they did stop asking to become boys. When they couldn't persuade parents to restrict the internet, the problems got worse).

We didn't allow a phone or a laptop until she was 15. She wasn't and isn't allowed to sit in her room on her own talking to people online we don't know - we focussed on hobbies, health, interests. It was a lot of hands on parenting work - horse riding, endless walks to the park to go bird spotting, visits to museums and galleries to fill the weekends and give her things to think about. And constant gentle reinforcement of the idea that female only means female body and everything else is up to you.

The fact is that this stuff you mentioned - ie ‘terms’ etc - is usually a propaganda tool of men who are misogynists who want to have power over women. Like men who want to play rugby against women because they can’t man-up to play against men. We have to look on them for the weird pathetic specimens they and instruct our children accordingly.

But it is widely accepted that we address people based on gender identity rather than biological sex because that would be very degrading to reduce people to genitals.

The most sexist thing I've read all year.

Greer says it best: twitter.com/womenreadwomen/status/1422890831615168526?s=21&t=SToS-lUDc9jzDeFASLLZPg

Mate if you're offended by referring to males as males and females as females because it "reduces people to genitals" you are going to be fucking LIVID when you discover that trans activists have pushed to reduce women (and never men) to their genital function "menstruators" "cervix havers" "birthing bodies".

Gosh, when you've processed your disappointment with transactivism do come back to this board to debrief.

By the way I think my genitals are awesome. Reduce away. They have given me good sex and children. But they also allow me to wear trousers, be good at map reading, shite at housework, swear lots and live in trainers.

Regarding the OP, I had this issue but the other way around and I acknowledge the concerns are less terrifying for boys. Although their stereotypical hobby /fashion /personality choices seem more restricted than girls, they have the luxury of, well, being boys in a patriarchal world. Not sexualised from puberty and no periods to contend with.

Anyway, aside from being constantly miss gendered by strangers up until puberty (never a problem because he doesn't view girls as lesser) the comments from children were about hair and fashion choices. Some were from kids who'd obviously received some kind of trans ideology training at school, and others were from kids who were brought up to follow gender stereotypes. There's not much difference between "that's a girl's t-shirt" and "so are you a girl now?". Both are horribly regressive points of view, learned from the trusted adults in their lives.

I haven't RTFT yet but there seems to be a lot of good advice on the thread.

Personally, I wouldn't use the word "tomboy" either. I don't think it sends the right message, and it's an old-fashioned idea that I wasn't comfortable with the in early 80s as a child, and am not now as a parent.

😂😂😂

Every single holiday club and sports club my daughter has been to has led to my daughter asking questions about at least one person in the group. And she's not even secondary yet.
My colleagues with children in secondary are just gritting their teeth.

Are you living under a childless rock or are you under 18?

Make sure she knows she is biologically female and that it is normal for females to like football, climbing trees, wearing trousers etc, not all females love pretty pink stuff...explain the real joy of being female is that you can bring human life (male and female) into the world.
All humans are born from a biological female's body....that is awesome.

The word tomboy conveys it clearly to everyone over the age of about 35. Happy to be corrected.
A better word would be "girl" but idiots think this includes so-called trans girls. Or trans boys.
We are never going to get this language back. All we can do is persist with girl and insist it means biological juvenile human female.

By the way I think my genitals are awesome... They have given me good sex and children. But they also allow me to wear trousers, be good at map reading, shite at housework, swear lots and live in trainers.

Are you me? 😆

But it is widely accepted that we address people based on gender identity rather than biological sex because that would be very degrading to reduce people to genitals.

Truly, the only people who reduce others to genitals are extreme trans activists and allies and anyone pushing 'inclusive' language.

Ever asked yourself why males are called 'penis havers' or 'ejaculators' or 'penis holders' or anything like that while women are constantly referred to as chest feeders, vulva havers, vagina owners, menstruates and so on.

I can post links to transitioned males who are absolutely horrified to be constantly reminded that they still have a penis by anyone even considering using 'penis haver'. The same with some transitioned females about being reminded that they still have menstruation, vaginas, ovaries and vulvas.

Similarly, there are transitioned males who use the males or alternative toilets and change rooms rather than disrespect females who need single sex spaces to remain single sex. Again, it is extreme activists and allies who use the phrase 'genital inspectors' all the time. I have never seen one feminist who has ever said 'genitals should be checked at the door'.

So, no. People who keep referring to genitals in these ways, and saying things like 'reduce people to genitals' are those who want to shut down discussion completely. That way they get their way and no equitable solution is found for women and children who haven't ever, and still are not getting a say in this debate.

And your post is supporting that whether that was your intention or not.

Ever asked yourself why males aren't called 'penis havers' or 'ejaculators' or 'penis holders' or anything like that while women are constantly referred to as chest feeders, vulva havers, vagina owners, menstruates and so on.

I was a tomboy but knew I was a girl. Still am a tomboy, I suppose. Mum prepared me for the changes of puberty and I just got on with it, but sailed and drove powerboats.

I was very concerned about this with my own DD, I work in a secondary school I see it happening all the time. The verbal gymnastics we are expected to still comply with.

I spent a lot of time discussing different types of women with DD and celebrating their successes, watching documentary's, showing that women don't always fit the stereotype etc. On starting secondary school DD came home and declared herself bi in the first 2 weeks, she joined the LGB+ group at school, I though "oh no, here we go" by the end of year 7 she had actually decided that she is same sex attracted. We discussed the toilet issue and sports. DD used to swim competitively so Lia Thomas was a good way in she could see how unfair it was from a performance aspect but not from the accessing the changing rooms, she plays rugby too so that was an obvious one to win that fully grown rugby trained men shouldnt be playing against women.

DD still doesnt really understand the toilet issue as she see trans people as harmless 12 year olds like her, the boys in her year are much much smaller than her and pose no risk to her at all. She doesnt think of them as 6 ft 4 men. I'm glad that my DD doesn't have any negative experiences with men she is incredibly fortunate but it makes it difficult for her to empathise with women who have when she is constantly getting the line "Be kind. Be accommodating." from school and peers.I try to put it to her that another persons comfort doesnt trump a womens right to feel safe, and that not all women feel safe around men due to their experiences and that needs to come first.