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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Globe Theatre makes Joan of Arc non-binary in new play

320 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 11/08/2022 21:27

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/11/globe-theatre-makes-joan-arc-non-binary-new-play/

"Joan of Arc is represented as non-binary in the Globe show, and the pronouns of the French patron saint have been changed to “they/them” rather than “she/her”.

Women’s rights campaigners have raised concerns that the move is another example of female figures being “erased” from history.

Promotional material for the “powerful and joyous new play” sets the scene: “Rebelling against the world’s expectations, questioning the gender binary, Joan finds their power and their belief spreads like fire.”

The play is written by writer Charlie Josephine, whose web biography states: “My pronouns are they/he. I’m an actor and a writer."

The Telegraph writers, who like The Spectator staff, know their stuff on this and have included a Women's Place comment too:

"Campaigner group Women’s Place UK said in a statement on the issue: “Women are getting really tired of being erased from history and having our achievements diminished.

“Joan of Arc was an astonishing woman who rebelled against the authoritarian oppression she faced for being female.

“Theatre has a fine tradition of inverting reality to encourage us to look at life differently but the fact remains that Joan of Arc was a woman and was persecuted as such.”"

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 12/08/2022 22:53

SarahandQuack
You want to fit women who've lived as men, in a misogynistic society, you'll find them. You want to find men who lived as women, ok, you might find them, but 1) being read as male will make them less subject to scrutiny, so less likely to be investigated and 2) they will be fewer, because the dangers and rewards don't stack up so well.

You are right, I’m sure.

On this train of thought regarding recasting the past into trans moulds, i suddenly remembered Toad of Toad Hall, dressing as a washer woman.

There may have been kings and prime ministers who were secret cross dressers. Decadent courts might have been good places for it. Venice, Versailles, Rome?

Re saints, Saint Paula of the 5th century was said to have grown a beard after praying to God to help her escape a predator. Maybe it was caused by a hormonal imbalance. She had had three children though so maybe not PCOS in her case.

SarahAndQuack · 12/08/2022 23:10

Oh yes! I bet you're right - I think there have been so many spaces, historically, where people could do all sorts and no one commented. Now we'd put a label on the behaviour, but very likely much of it just passed with no comment.

FWIW you can have children with PCOS - it's thought more than half of people with it experience no impact on fertility - but YY, I just love this idea of these bearded saints.

WandaWomblesaurus · 13/08/2022 00:19

AgnestaVipers · 11/08/2022 21:29

She was almost certainly non-binary, because her behaviour wasn't ladylike and she insisted on wearing trousers.

What an infantile comment.

Mollyollydolly · 13/08/2022 00:26

I believe in artistic freedom even if I think it's a ridiculous concept. What really angered me was the poster accompanying the tweet where her breasts are bound. Really Globe? Really? What kind of image is that for young women. It never ceases to amaze me they cant see how conservative, how regressive it is. And harmful to impressionable minds.

LizzieSiddal · 13/08/2022 02:32

@Mollyollydolly What really angered me was the poster accompanying the tweet where her breasts are bound. Really Globe? Really? What kind of image is that for young women. It never ceases to amaze me they cant see how conservative, how regressive it is. And harmful to impressionable minds.

Theres a rich history of girls being damaged and authorities thinking it’s absolutely fine!

I worked in education in the late 80s in Tower Hamlets, (I only stayed a year) working with often very poor children. It was ok to allow some 10 and 11 year olds girls to go “home” (Bangladesh) for 6 weeks, and come back “engaged” It was their culture so how dare you question it!
Then we have the child sex gangs in almost every city in the Uk, but don’t complaint to the police or SS because the girls “want it”.

Girls are just fodder.

theclangersarecoming · 13/08/2022 02:38

Re men — I know it’s a slight diversion: there was plenty of male cross dressing going on across a range of historical periods in the past, but of course the antecedents of it were very different — either understood as part of a male-male erotic subculture (as in Georgian Molly-houses), or as part of a quite acceptable-on-the-down-low pseudo-Greek experimentation for boys and young men with pederastic relationships with older men. (Often these took the model of the young man as coded as pseudo-feminine when he is in his youth the object of older male desire. Such young men would not have course necessarily had a concept of exclusive same-sex attraction, and might generally have gone on to have socially acceptable heterosexual marriages.)

There was also a tradition of imagining cross-dressing as a form of youthful high jinks for the aristocratic classes — this might also be in a kind of continuity with boy players on the stage, as it was often about theatricality and a sort of sexy pastoral misrule — one of the earliest English proto-novels, Sidney’s The Countess of Pembroke’s Arcadia, has a long section where the two main male characters cross-dress as pastoral maidservants in order to get close (in a sexy titillating way) to the virginal female aristocratic objects of their affections (nightgowns blow up, glimpses of skin are had, the young men dressed as women get hot and bothered, and so on).

There’s a lot of male crossdressing in bawdy plays and texts from early periods onwards, much in the prototype vein of traditional crossdressing comedy drag acts; similarly bed-tricks and so on in later verse and plays. So there is definitely a tradition of men cross-dressing for comedy, larks, theatricality, sex (of various kinds), and so on; but it’s genuinely very hard to find examples of men who genuinely appeared to want to live as women — rather than men engaging in role-playing certain aspects of submission or femininity as a part of erotic same-sex or theatrical/literary culture.

As is ever the case, before the idea of the “homosexual” started to appear in something akin to its modern form at the end of the 19thc, it’s a difficult job enough decoding the different historical understandings of same sex male erotic relationships. Masculinity (and male-male friendship) was often coded very differently in earlier periods, so disentangling what is culturally an aspect of erotic (versus non-erotic) same sex interaction is hard enough already.

Often one of the few ways of expressing same sex erotic attraction was through gender performance; so it’s likely that for men, cross-dressing or performing some aspect of “femininity” was most often a signal of same-sex desire/preference, rather than a desire to “become” a woman (which would not have culturally been an attractive prospect for the most part).

However, it’s probably impossible to tell for certain. There were certainly men throughout history who looked perfectly “normative” to wider society, but performed really very unconventional sexual roles in their personal lives (though it tends not to be until a little later in the nineteenth century that they or others tended to write in lots of detail about them. Look up for example the Arthur Munby/Hannah Cullwick diaries for some historical people with very unconventional sexual lives!)

Again, though, it’s extremely hard to disentangle what might be identity from orientation from sexual preference/fetish from personal circumstance from the desire to play with/upend cultural norms for a myriad of other reasons. All of those things were probably bound up together in complex ways, as they are today — but the one thing we do know is that (Foucault!) the complex configurations of the past were not at all the same as the ones we have today, so we’d be mistaken if we simply overlay our own ideas on the past and pretend they’re the same.

It’s as fine artistically to imagine Joan of Arc as nonbinary as it is to imagine Shakespeare as a TV scriptwriter, or that Julian of Norwich was actually an immortal vampire with a nut allergy — as long as there’s no attempt to pretend it’s historically accurate in any way; or some kind of politically significant uncovering of “the real story of trans identity”. That’s just nonsense. (And those writing the programme notes seem not to have understood that people in the past were well versed in rhetorical and imaginative phrases, and that they did not necessarily think that putting on different clothing actually changed the truth of your nature — it’s a quite routine rhetorical and figurative trope, and not an expression of a literal belief of the time.)

IcakethereforeIam · 13/08/2022 08:00

@WandaWomblesaurus I'm 100% that @AgnestaVipers was being sarcastic. I sometimes need a big board and red strings to keep everything straight, but pretty sure on this oneSmile

Runningintolife · 13/08/2022 08:57

How pleasing to see JK Rowling described as 'long term women's rights campaigner' in the Daily Mail coverage of this story.

LizzieSiddal · 13/08/2022 09:23

Yes I noticed that too @Runningintolife, very pleasing and very accurate.

Zerogravity · 13/08/2022 09:49

(Off topic but every time I think I should spend a bit less time on mumsnet, along comes a really interesting post like @theclangersarecoming 's and I realise what I'd be missing!)

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/08/2022 09:50

@theclangersarecoming - thank you so much for that explanation. It was really interesting and explained so much.

This, to me, is really important.

It’s as fine artistically to imagine Joan of Arc as nonbinary as it is to imagine Shakespeare as a TV scriptwriter, or that Julian of Norwich was actually an immortal vampire with a nut allergy — as long as there’s no attempt to pretend it’s historically accurate in any way; or some kind of politically significant uncovering of “the real story of trans identity”. That’s just nonsense. (And those writing the programme notes seem not to have understood that people in the past were well versed in rhetorical and imaginative phrases, and that they did not necessarily think that putting on different clothing actually changed the truth of your nature — it’s a quite routine rhetorical and figurative trope, and not an expression of a literal belief of the time.)

They are doing what I earlier described as 'being ahistorical' in simply assuming that 'cross-dressing equals trans' (or non-binary or whatever). It's embarrassingly silly and naive.

OldCrone · 13/08/2022 10:01

They are doing what I earlier described as 'being ahistorical' in simply assuming that 'cross-dressing equals trans' (or non-binary or whatever). It's embarrassingly silly and naive.

And yet the same people tell us that gender expression isn't the same as gender identity, and the only person who can decide whether someone is trans is that person themself.

Which makes transing the dead a non starter.

Dwrcegin · 13/08/2022 11:04

AgnestaVipers · 11/08/2022 21:29

She was almost certainly non-binary, because her behaviour wasn't ladylike and she insisted on wearing trousers.

You think women who aren't ladylike and wear trousers are genderless?

Joan knew she was a girl/woman. Removing the womanhood of historical figures, such as Joan and Elizabeth I, is bizarre.

ScrollingLeaves · 13/08/2022 11:07

Dwrcegin · Today 11:04

“AgnestaVipers · 11/08/2022 21:29
She was almost certainly non-binary, because her behaviour wasn't ladylike and she insisted on wearing trousers.”

You think women who aren't ladylike and wear trousers are genderless?

Joan knew she was a girl/woman. Removing the womanhood of historical figures, such as Joan and Elizabeth I, is bizarre.

AgnestaVipers was being ironic, I believe.

Dwrcegin · 13/08/2022 11:08

ScrollingLeaves · 13/08/2022 11:07

Dwrcegin · Today 11:04

“AgnestaVipers · 11/08/2022 21:29
She was almost certainly non-binary, because her behaviour wasn't ladylike and she insisted on wearing trousers.”

You think women who aren't ladylike and wear trousers are genderless?

Joan knew she was a girl/woman. Removing the womanhood of historical figures, such as Joan and Elizabeth I, is bizarre.

AgnestaVipers was being ironic, I believe.

Oh thank god!

DarkDayforMN · 13/08/2022 11:15

Speaking of “ahistorical”, the play’s author also described Joan as “working class.”

This makes me think that the “nonbinary” thing isn’t some deliberate knowing “queering” but a genuinely ignorant projection of present day thinking into the past. (I guess everyone else on this thread already came to that conclusion but I have a tendency to give the benefit of the doubt to stupid sounding ideas!)

But how does someone that ignorant reach the position where her (their?) plays are being performed in the Globe? I know theatre is captured but this still puzzles me. It sounds so bad. There are so many intelligent people with interesting ideas trying to write for the theatre. How does this make it through?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/08/2022 11:18

Speaking of “ahistorical”, the play’s author also described Joan as “working class.”

Oh, no. Don't they teach the industrial revolution anymore?

DarkDayforMN · 13/08/2022 11:23

How does this make it through?

I want to add that in my fairly limited experience as a theatre goer I think most plays are pretty good! I might just be lacking in discernment, but I think that all the work that goes into putting on a play and all the competition in the field acts as a quality control process that usually functions well. So I’m a bit gobsmacked by how dumb this seems to be.

SarahAndQuack · 13/08/2022 12:13

@theclangersarecoming - YY, but it's so hard to disentangle culture and expediency and everything else, so how can we say but it’s genuinely very hard to find examples of men who genuinely appeared to want to live as women? I mean, people will hide behind the most 'acceptable' social structure, because that's what people do.

I think perhaps a better question is to ask why there have so often been 'safety-valve' type contexts where cross dressing is sanctioned - what kind of social need is that answering? Is it more about policing gender expression outside of those contexts (by providing the contrast)? Or is it evidence of a deep-rooted need for these contexts and spaces where people can do what's generally seen as unacceptable?

Fenlandia · 13/08/2022 12:38

Helen Lewis calling out a couple of they/them writers on Twitter who've totally missed the point: twitter.com/helenlewis/status/1558398063617654785

"It's very sad to see interesting writers become dull culture warriors. No attempt here to grasp the actual argument, or the relevant history: Having a boy play Juliet wasn't "gender-bending". It was a reflection of laws which excluded women from professions and public life.

No one is arguing against cross-gender casting, which has been great for the theatre! Fiona Shaw as Richard II, Ruth Negga as Hamlet, Glenda Jackson as Lear. And Shakespeare is an innately queer writer, cf his love for the "man right fair" and Viola/Sebastian etc.

I feel a certain sense of despair at outlining what used to be core feminist beliefs, that femininity is not an innate part of womanhood, and people on twitter refusing to hear that, and instead arguing back against, essentially, the Viktor Orban position. It's disingenous."

Well said. I wouldn't mind it myself if it was just about being playful in the context of a creative work. But the associated commentary and breast-binding imagery of the poster make it clear it's pushing an ideology.

theclangersarecoming · 13/08/2022 12:47

SarahAndQuack · 13/08/2022 12:13

@theclangersarecoming - YY, but it's so hard to disentangle culture and expediency and everything else, so how can we say but it’s genuinely very hard to find examples of men who genuinely appeared to want to live as women? I mean, people will hide behind the most 'acceptable' social structure, because that's what people do.

I think perhaps a better question is to ask why there have so often been 'safety-valve' type contexts where cross dressing is sanctioned - what kind of social need is that answering? Is it more about policing gender expression outside of those contexts (by providing the contrast)? Or is it evidence of a deep-rooted need for these contexts and spaces where people can do what's generally seen as unacceptable?

The thing is, I don’t think it has ever been seen as unacceptable. Unconventional, maybe, playful, subversive, but not unacceptable. There’s a tendency today for young people to believe in a Whiggish fantasy that clothing choices were heavily socially policed in every part of the past as if being “gender non conforming” was terribly shocking and “gender identities” were heavily tied to clothing. But in most of the past “identity” conceptions of the person just weren’t part of the cultural landscape. Clothing was conventional but also understood as just conventional, too — it often just wasn’t that shocking or that important in a deep sense.

As has been the case for a lot of our lives as well. One thing that is always the case in historical analysis, as of course you know, is that people have always made use of complex figurative tropes, conventions and metaphorical language which they always already recognise as tropes, and know perfectly well doesn’t reflect reality.

I mean, if you saw a grandpa from 1984 grumbling at Boy George on Top of the Pops: “Is or a man or a woman?” — you know that he doesn’t actually believe that Boy George is either actually androgynous or that one can’t tell if he is a man or a woman. It’s a trope used to articulate a sense of social disapproval of what was perceived as homosexual. And for much of history a lot of gender “subversion” is socially read as sexual performance even if it isn’t articulated as such because sexual topics were considered taboo.

And a fair amount of it is just everyday clothing not ever quite matching up to the imaginary cultural ideals of the time. Which we are all aware that we never do, anyway.

In the same way that if grandpa misses the days when women wore pretty dresses, he still doesn’t think the housewives going about his town in 1984, in short hair wearing dungarees and no makeup with their toddlers in tow, like my own mum did, are actually “gender non conforming” in any meaningful respect.

ArcheryAnnie · 13/08/2022 13:01

toomanypillows · 11/08/2022 23:55

This is frustrating. When Charlie went by Charlotte she was cast in an all female version of Julius Caesar I think at the National and then she played Mercutio as a woman at The RSC. It was quite key for some of the young women who engaged with that version of Romeo and Juliet that the playmaker character could be a woman.

At the time I did wonder about Charlotte's trajectory - and here we are.

It just seems a shame that she was able to take advantage of female exploration of smashing male gender norms in theatre and has turned it into this kind of female erasure.

I remember CJ very clearly in that role in the 2012 Julius Caesar, and her character was one I really resonated with, as I'd known quite a few young women who would "tough" it out like this character did. I am genuinely really, really sad that such a brilliant young actor, who got their step up precisely because they were cast in an all-female version of a play, would then feel it necessary to distance themselves from their own femaleness.

However, it one thing to distance yourself from your own femaleness, and quite another to say to the world that a woman who came from nowhere and then led an army cannot therefore possibly be a woman, because women aren't like that. It's misogynistic nonsense on a stick.

If CJ and the globe are so keen to stage a play with a non binary character in the lead, then they can bloody well write one from scratch, rather than erasing yet another woman from history.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/08/2022 13:10

I'm afraid it just reminds me of the old Dad in Goodness Gracious Me -
"Albert Einstein? Indian!"

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/08/2022 13:26

I do think playwrights are allowed to explore a historic character through a modern lens. So long as they aren't trying to make a historic claim that she definitely was anything - mentally ill, or inspired by God, or feminist, or trans. That's meaningless if your notion of "trans" is an internal gender identity, we have no idea what her internal gender identity was. She had practical and social reasons for not wearing women's clothes, we can't tell if she meant "I'm as good as a man" or "I am a man". We can see her as a woman who broke away from conventional women's roles, and write a play that imagines her as feminist or trans, or (usually better) a play that explores ideas about feminism or transgender through her story through what she did and what happened to her and the people around her, but that doesn't make her either feminist or trans on truth.

theclangersarecoming · 13/08/2022 13:45

@AmaryllisNightAndDay yes, absolutely. We go through periods when people are interested in more historically accurate versions of art or plays, and periods when people are more interested in modern “reinterpretations” of them. That in itself is not unusual or surprising. Twenty years ago, the Globe house style was fussily historicist, and you’d go and they would explain to you that the dried flowers they had hanging up were only made out of flowers that plausibly could have been picked in June in England in Shakespeare’s time. 😂

I don’t mind that much if now they want to swing from the rafters in a modernist box like retro Peter Brook wannabes. As long as they don’t try to pretend that it’s anything other than a modern reinterpretation rather than any kind of historical truth.

It’s the pushing of “transing the past” that doesn’t really sit right here. Historians are well aware of the pitfalls of viewing the past through an anachronistic lens, and it’s fine if that’s made clear to audiences that that is what’s happening — here, though, their publicity doesn’t seem to acknowledge that.

I’d go so far as to say that history is actually pretty well taught in the U.K. school system at the moment, and has been for a while; and there’s a strong public interest in cultural history that isn’t actually a particularly naive one. So I don’t quite know where this faux trans history is coming from, or who they imagine as the audience for it. The programme description has the air of an undergraduate essay where the writer is bullshitting an argument by desperately cherrypicking quotes that they are fully aware don’t quite show what they claim. I’m not that sure anyone who isn’t in that ballpark of being or having recently been a slightly desperate humanities undergraduate is going to be massively convinced.

It’s like the Globe has abandoned actual researched theatre practice for student theatre. Maybe it has!