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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

938 replies

aseriesofstillimages · 07/08/2022 12:36

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 14/08/2022 22:49

aseriesofstillimages

Just to add to this, there would also be (and has been) a massive kick back against those that identify as being a black person and are not a black person.

Original poster
aseriesofstillimages · 14/08/2022 22:49

FrippEnos · 14/08/2022 22:47

Can you give a comprehensive definition of what it means to be Black?

Can you be more specific as "means to be black" is a term that varies from black person to black person (using your terminology). As would what it means to be a woman varies from woman to woman.

I can however define what a black person is in the same way that I can define what a woman is, a lesbian is, a gay man is, a heterosexual person is and a Bi person is.

Sorry, what I meant was, can you define Black in a way that includes all people who correctly consider themselves to be Black, and does not include anyone who correctly considers themselves not to be Black.

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 14/08/2022 22:55

It is a strawman argument but I can. Can you?

Original poster
aseriesofstillimages · 14/08/2022 23:10

I can’t, which is exactly my point - I don’t think it’s correct to say you can’t be something if you can’t define it.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/08/2022 23:10

I was saying how, as a bisexual, I find it hard to imagine how straight or gay people can know they will never, in the whole course of their life, fall for someone of the same/opposite sex.

All I'm getting is that as a bisexual who is theoretically not ruling any sex or gender identity out of your dating pool you find it hard to grasp how other people's sexuality works, and don't really understand what it is to be lesbian, gay or straight.

He was saying that his identity as a gay man is important to him, and part of that is the ability to say he will never find a woman sexually attractive, and for that to be believed. But he also said that he could find trans men attractive, because what is attractive to him about men does not hinge on genitals - it’s things like the hairy body and face, the six pack, deep voice.

All your friends and colleagues seem to be genderists though so you are in a filter bubble. Anecdotally and through the limited research carried out, it isn't typical of gay men to fancy female people of any gender identity.

I think it's your own bisexuality that's giving you your blind spot here. Maybe stop trying to redefine categories which aren't yours that other people need to be meaningful?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/08/2022 23:18

But he also said that he could find trans men attractive

It also sounds a bit "chinny reckon", frankly.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/08/2022 23:20

Not saying you're lying, just that when it comes down to it most gay men would balk at it. As I said, exclusive single sex attraction isn't something you appear to understand.

LK1972 · 14/08/2022 23:20

@aseriesofstillimages I'm bisexual and am in a long-term straight relationship. There's no discrimination that I experience now.

I don't think it helps anyone to try and judge anyone from a personal sexuality point of view, like you appear to be doing.

Heterosexual and homosexual people have a right to their own sexuality - not identity, sexuality. Your gay friend seems to have biphobic tendencies-if he's happy to also sleep with females then he's bisexual, nothing flipping wrong with it!

Aren't you a bit offended at all these friends of yours seemingly denying the perfect validity of bisexuality?

LK1972 · 14/08/2022 23:24

As to comparison with race - yes, race is much, much harder to define, as mixed-race children have existed, always, unlike 'mixed-sex' children ( and no, DSDs are not 'mixed-sex').

sanluca · 14/08/2022 23:28

aseriesofstillimages · 14/08/2022 23:10

I can’t, which is exactly my point - I don’t think it’s correct to say you can’t be something if you can’t define it.

Why is it always race that gets dragged into this and not say disabled or age? Age, like sex, is a clear definition. You can identify as a 20 year old, but based on your date of birth, you either are or aren't.
Same for sex, you are male or female. Sexual orientation is based on the sex of people involved. Clear definition.
Disabled: you need to meet a set of criteria to be qualified as disabled. You can identify as disabled, but don't qualify, bad luck.

Race: not that clear cut as you can descend from multiple races and races aren't defined in most laws. So you can identify as black ifyou want, legally there aren't really any criteria. Which is probably why transactivists resort to the race argument, it is the most vague one.

FrippEnos · 14/08/2022 23:36

aseriesofstillimages · 14/08/2022 23:10

I can’t, which is exactly my point - I don’t think it’s correct to say you can’t be something if you can’t define it.

I am going to point out your word salad again

who correctly consider themselves to be Black there are definitions that you can look up but you will always find gray areas when you use words like "consider".

By your definition of "correct" Rachel Dolezal is black as that is what she identifies as.

LK1972 · 14/08/2022 23:43

Oli London is even better example- someone who surgically changed his phenotype to something passable for Korean( in his mind at least).

So if his phenotype is 'Asian' now, and he identifies as Korean, is he?

Similarly to a man surgically attempting to resemble female phenotype, and identifying as women, are they?

I don't think Koreans are rolling out a red carpet to welcome Oli into the community, such bigots!

Goingtofast · 14/08/2022 23:49

I’m just so done with this crap, I can’t believe we need to have this conversation.
Lesbians are same sex attracted that is a fact.
A lesbian who finds herself shagging a male is no longer a lesbian by definition, and no I don’t buy the ‘a woman knows her own sexuality and can label it however she wants’ bollocks, because she very clearly doesn’t! you can’t just identify however you please and expect everyone to pretend with you, words have meaning ffs.

Sincerely
a fed up lesbian.

LK1972 · 15/08/2022 00:31

I've read 'I identify as a lesbian' on someone's professional profile before, and whilst I'm actually pretty certain this person IS a lesbian, I rather reject the formulation.

It's like sex, you're either male or female, it's not an identity but a description. It only holds a value judgment for those who think one is better than the other.

QueenHippolyta · 15/08/2022 10:56

Op: I find it hard to imagine how straight or gay people can know they will never, in the whole course of their life, fall for someone of the same/opposite sex.

translation for Lesbians:
How do you know you don't like cck if you haven't tried it? or
This is different; my cck is different; try it....

This is exactly ( as so many have said before me) the same cr*p that we Lesbians have been getting from straight men for years...
How do you know you don't like it =
how do you know you won't fall for the same gender person
and like it
17 pages trying to pull the same old nonsense.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 15/08/2022 11:02

Goingtofast · 14/08/2022 23:49

I’m just so done with this crap, I can’t believe we need to have this conversation.
Lesbians are same sex attracted that is a fact.
A lesbian who finds herself shagging a male is no longer a lesbian by definition, and no I don’t buy the ‘a woman knows her own sexuality and can label it however she wants’ bollocks, because she very clearly doesn’t! you can’t just identify however you please and expect everyone to pretend with you, words have meaning ffs.

Sincerely
a fed up lesbian.

100% agree, @Goingtofast!!

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 11:16

@aseriesofstillimages

I don't know if this has been asked but why are you so concerned about how these terms are defined?

It seems to me that you are quite happy to redefine terms that do not suit your purpose at the expense of those that define themselves by these terms.

CompleteGinasaur · 15/08/2022 11:21

aseriesofstillimages · 14/08/2022 23:10

I can’t, which is exactly my point - I don’t think it’s correct to say you can’t be something if you can’t define it.

I don't think it's correct to say you can be something if you can't define it, either, op. So can you define woman for me, please? And then show me how this definition applies to your friend's partner?

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 11:29

aseriesofstillimages · 14/08/2022 23:10

I can’t, which is exactly my point - I don’t think it’s correct to say you can’t be something if you can’t define it.

How do you know you are something if you can't define it?

Original poster
aseriesofstillimages · 15/08/2022 14:11

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 11:29

How do you know you are something if you can't define it?

Show quote history

I’m still waiting for your definition of Black….

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 14:30

aseriesofstillimages · 15/08/2022 14:11

I’m still waiting for your definition of Black….

Show quote history

You've changed it again, but as you have asked so nicely my definition of black is

"of the very darkest colour owing to the absence of or complete absorption of light; the opposite of white."

but again specifics would but nice.

FrippEnos · 15/08/2022 14:31

Now if you could answer how you can be something if you can't define it, that would be nice as well.

Franca123 · 15/08/2022 14:51

So now the OP is trying to undermine the basis for race as a protected belief not satisfied with undermining sex protection and sexual orientation protection. Just stop talking.

DaughterofDawn · 15/08/2022 15:44

Franca123 · 15/08/2022 14:51

So now the OP is trying to undermine the basis for race as a protected belief not satisfied with undermining sex protection and sexual orientation protection. Just stop talking.

Not surprising. Have you heard of Oli London? He I mean they are very hated but have actually picked up a bit of a following and people are starting to subscribe to their ideology that they can be trans korean. I guess soon enough not only will I be a terrible privilege cis gender women but also a terrible cis race person. Give it five to ten years.

Franca123 · 15/08/2022 17:23

Protected characteristic not belief. Sorry!