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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Isn't this a good thing?

131 replies

rumplestiltskinp · 06/08/2022 14:05

Just looking for some way to clear my thoughts around this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11080589/Why-NHS-sexing-WOMENS-health-pages.html

The effect of this is;

Allowing women who "identify as male" to go and be treated for gynae problems whilst having their "gender identity" recognised and not being put off going for treatment regarding their female anatomy.

Means that men (people with male anatomy) are still going to be referred to as men and male with no conditioning to refer to them by their gender.

So on face value it seems like this policy does nothing to validate transwomen and does everything to ensure females go for the treatment they need.

Just like with unisex/mixed sex toilets it doesn't mean men can go into women's toilets, it means men and women use the same space - again not validating men as women.

Not saying I support any of this but I'm right about those observations, aren't I?

OP posts:
howdoesatoastermaketoast · 15/08/2022 18:08

@the winter soldier

One explanation of it that's been on my mind is think of it as a conversation about manners respect and boundaries. There are two competing systems of classifying people both include everyone (ish) and we are perfectly happy to accept that these people exist we aren't saying they don't or shouldn't but the same person might have different words to describe themselves in each system.

So in 'old progressive' people were male or female and the words men boys women and girls were signifiers that showed you were an adult or a child of whichever sex. So simple children could understand. These were (are) broad and inclusive categories no human is poised between the two sexes. Everyone inclusive of possible deformity defect or disorder still belongs to one sex or the other.

And then you can have, sexual orientation: Homosexual Bisexual or Heterosexual. And under the 'old progressive' system this denoted which sex (or sexes) you're attracted to without judgement or pressure to change.

And then there is the extent to which you conform (dress hair make up jewellery etc.) to the gendered expectations the society places on you because of the sex of the body you were born into. GNC stands for gender non conforming usually meant in quite supportive terms as it was recognised that people (men) often suffered backlash or risk of violence for visible non conformity in terms of hair dress make-up and women for not being sufficiently available to men.

But over time heterosexual and homosexual was somewhat supplanted by straight and queer where straight meant something a little like boring / vanilla and queer meant something more like experimental / exciting kinky.

And you got to 'new progressive' - the assertion is that this is kinder, more 'inclusive'. I am not persuaded that that is true...

I shalln't attempt a clear explanation of the new system as even my best effort at clarity would sound like a piss take. But if you can't acknowledge sex women suffer. If women can't talk about our sex you can't talk about sex discrimination, sexual assault, sexual harassment, rape. If we can't use our words to describe our reality women suffer. If we can't talk about our anatomy we can't talk about our health or pleasure or control our contraception. At every turn its women who lose out, women who are silenced and sidelined and treated as unimportant support humans.

And then you get to sexual orientation... The word Lesbian has been redefined and this redefinition embraced by stonewall to mean Lesbian (homosexual women) and heterosexual men (old system) who feel entitled to have sex with them.

IF I thought the new system was better I'd be a non binary pansexual as would my husband. But that would miss out some pretty crucial information.

the winter soldier · 15/08/2022 18:57

@howdoesatoastermaketoast I pretty much agree with all of that explanation it makes sense thank you. I'm not sure about the 'new' definitions of straight and queer myself as it seems quite blurry on social media. I'm bisexual, I've never known what it was like to be heterosexual or a lesbian because I have known I liked both right from a child. But I can understand how hurt and angry lesbians must feel when trans women say those things. I don't think anyone should be forced into anything, there is such a thing as genital preference no matter what the person themselves feels or looks like on the outside. If one doesn't like c*ck one doesn't want it full-stop! I have found trans men attractive, I haven't ever found an individual trans women attractive but I wouldn't rule it out. Is that because I'm bi and don't have any sort of a genital preference, and like both feminine men and masculine women and vice versa, I don't know. I don't know if that makes me 'pan'. You don't have to answer but what do you feel makes you pan?

I also feel that we should be able to talk about our harassment, assault and rape, our anatomy, etc. etc. there's nothing wrong with talking about our sex, I feel very strongly about that. I personally feel I can talk about women as a sex, this is important as we still fight for equality.

Thanks for your measured response :-)

SolasAnla · 15/08/2022 20:06

the winter soldier · 15/08/2022 17:23

That would depend on the circumstances, I would expect society to comply with law and not reorganising speech patterns is not illegal as such, so one would need to look at other factors such as Ts&Cs of websites eg Twitter and Facebook (rightly or wrongly their platform their rules) and in work, polices such as Code of Conduct or Bullying and Harassment policies. Note I'm not suggesting anyone here would be bullying someone or would fall foul of any such policy. Outside of work, presumably not much unless the workplace had a 'bringing the workplace into disrepute' clause. And that's subjective. The final consequence I suppose might be other people's opinions of you inside or outside of work, but what people think of you doesn't really matter in the end if you are doing something you feel strongly about.

Thats a lot of words to say forced speech is ok

the winter soldier · 15/08/2022 23:03

You asked what the consequences are, I answered. There's no such thing as free speech without consequences, like it or lump it

MeaninglessGraphs · 15/08/2022 23:56

I suppose it depends whether you're female bisexual, or male bisexual.

the winter soldier · 16/08/2022 15:13

MeaninglessGraphs · 15/08/2022 23:56

I suppose it depends whether you're female bisexual, or male bisexual.

Is that to me? I'm female

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