Isn't this a good thing?

[rumplestiltskinp]

Just looking for some way to clear my thoughts around this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11080589/Why-NHS-sexing-WOMENS-health-pages.html

The effect of this is;

Allowing women who "identify as male" to go and be treated for gynae problems whilst having their "gender identity" recognised and not being put off going for treatment regarding their female anatomy.

Means that men (people with male anatomy) are still going to be referred to as men and male with no conditioning to refer to them by their gender.

So on face value it seems like this policy does nothing to validate transwomen and does everything to ensure females go for the treatment they need.

Just like with unisex/mixed sex toilets it doesn't mean men can go into women's toilets, it means men and women use the same space - again not validating men as women.

Not saying I support any of this but I'm right about those observations, aren't I?

No, I'm tired of people invoking the spectre of "mental health", knowing that that will make people think of mental illness, when what they mean is that things which are supposed to make you feel bad make them feel bad. Emotions exist for a reason. Feeling stressed and upset tells you you need to change something. It is not itself a mental health problem, the way that feeling pain when you lean against a radiator for too long is not a physical health problem.

I was on Reddit earlier, reading a thread about a video of a naked man obstructing traffic who was punched in the face for being an inconvenience. The vast majority of commenters were cheering this annoying naked guy getting his comeuppance, without a single thought that it's very likely the man was experiencing a serious mental health crisis, no different to experiencing a heart attack or an epileptic Susie in the street and causing disruption that way. All the mental health awareness stuff going on about normal feelings and very mild mental health problems that can be dealt with via more chats with friends has done nothing for people with mental illness. People think mental health and mental illness is about feeling sad or worried.

You manage your hurty feels how you like. If you're trivialising serious, potentially fatal illness, then stop it. And fuck off with your sarky hostility to perfectly civil comments.

<sigh> epileptic seizure

Basically, "mental health" is not your trump card to get other people to do what you want them to.

Um, @ClumpingBambooIsALie you seem to have an excellent awareness of mental illness and yes that person you read about could well have been mentally ill. But then you dismiss my mental illness (and yes I am diagnosed and medicated) as 'hurty feels', accuse me of being sarky and hostile, and tell me to fuck off. I'm not sure there was any need for any of that, my comment was also perfectly civil, I just didn't see the reasoning behind what you were saying. I now see you were perfectly reasonably differentiating between mental health and mental illness, which I hadn't picked up, so apologies.

@Datum yes you're right I agree there's a difference between the medical condition and being transgender because you don't have to have one to be the other. Yeh it's a difficult one, I believe in gender but I don't believe we have to adhere to gender stereotypes, I understand why people think it's illogical!

Oh PS forgot to say Thank you Datum, I appreciate your kind words

Alright you don't care about anyone else's feelings, you don't have to, I'm just glad I don't live like that.

Again with the gratuitous misreading. I said I don't care about anyone's "mental health" because people like you have made "mental health" a meaningless term that you just drag out when you want to manipulate people into behaving how you'd like. I also said I don't feel I'm obligated to participate in someone else's therapy. Neither of those things mean I don't care about people's feelings.

Wow that got deleted quick, I want to make it clear it wasn't me who reported you.

Thanks.

When a man goes for a testicle check or whatever I wonder why they aren't up in arms going 'we are women with testicles, not men'

The majority of these people are adult men, of the age you go for these checks. I expected they'd be most eager to get that language changed to refer to "people who have testicles" so they aren't constantly reminded they are male.

The reason the male health pages have not been changed and there is no pressure to do so @rumplestiltskinp is because the NHS and TRAs know damn well that men wouldn't stand for it.

It's probably a monitor who decided "I don't care about trans people's mental health" is gross transphobia and therefore a deletable offence, if you ignore the entire context where I pointed out that that's because I don't care about anybody's "mental health" so long as we're unable to properly define that term. You might as well talk about whether we care about people's flibbleflobble. It's just sounds at this point.

I'm sure you're right. And if you explain the context to HQ, they might reinstate the post once they understand the focus.

Possibly. I don't think it's that important to reinstate it TBH.

I'm not sure what 'people like me' means. All you know about me is what I've written on here and other threads. I don't think I've tried to manipulate other people into behaving 'how I'd like' in fact quite the opposite I've stated you and other people can think, believe and act differently to me and that's fine. Of course there's the law and the Ts&Cs of sites, etc. so there are consequences to actions, but people can honestly still think and believe what they want. And I honestly am not trying to deliberately or otherwise misread what you said, the message you wrote was pretty hostile and that's how it came across. You've clarified so okay.

And 'okay' as in that's fine' no sarkiness intended

You do believe in gender sterotypes if you did not, you would recognise that trans and nonbinary are just new gender sterotypes.

If you did not believe in gender sterotypes your whole framework argument fails.
You believe that I should have to look at a Western dressed bepenised human and reorganise my speech pattern, ignore that I am in what should be a single sex female space, all because he choose to put on Western Female Gender clothing or a Female name/pronoun.

I didn't say gender stereotypes don't exist, unfortunately they do. I don't 'believe in them' I don't like them and I said I don't believe we should have to adhere to them. I certainly don't. And no where have I mentioned what I feel about single sex spaces?

I might be misremembering, but didn't you say you believe in gender?

Yes I believe in 'gender' but not 'gender stereotypes'. When I refer to gender I'm talking about what's on the inside because I don't think it really matters what people look like on the outside (and yes from reading on here I know lots of people don't have an internal feeling they just are). So I believe 'gender identity' is what's on the inside (what we feel) and 'gender expression' is what's on the outside (what people see). I think gender stereotypes refer to what people see on the outside (how people expect us to dress or behave, the types of career they expect us to have, etc.) I don't think any of us needs to adhere to stereotypes if we don't want to and stereotypes aren't a good thing. And I honestly don't expect anyone else to believe or behave the same as me.

AlisonDonut I don't have young children mine are both over thirty, they know the difference between sex and gender and they know about trans people. I think if present day schools are telling children they can change 'sex' then that's wrong and it's bound to confuse children. It's up to us as parents to know what schools are teaching our children and do our best to bring them up to be safe happy adults. I do worry about what's being taught in schools if the papers can be believed but I don't have any experience of it. But I do know I was very involved in my children's education and was able to explain, add things and interpret stuff they didn't understand. In those days it more related to algebra or English lit but for general sex education they covered at school I also focused on e.g. respect, consent and keeping yourself safe.

I would imagine if they were small and came home saying they had been told they could change sex I might say something like 'well we are all born little boys or little girls' (talk about the physical differences) and then say something like 'some people grow up to feel they are different' (explain how in an age appropriate way) 'but they don't change their physical sex. They might change how they look on the outside, change their name etc etc' depending on age and questions. And that we treat them how they wish to be treated like (insert name of person we know here)

Well @the winter soldier the problem is that the schools dont tell us what they teach, they just go ahead and do it. And personally, I am lucky. I have been a SAHM for years and I am very close to my children so I know exactly what they are taught and I could complain to the school when things went badly wrong (sexualised in primary school and appalling teaching of trans including every stereotype available- outsourced to incompetent, awful company).

but many busy parents have this introduced behind their backs. They will never find out unless their child tells them. Half of the other mums in my DCs class didn’t know and were shocked. They commented after that their DCs had been “off” and “acting strange” after.

I believe we should be able to send our children to school without worrying about what they are taught.

What are the demands for the removal of the word woman and forced pronoun, if not the an outward gender expression?

Demanding that the word woman be removed from health campaigns is not an internal feeling it is an action.

Your argument is based around the idea that one's gender behaviours must be recognised and reflected back to oneself by the casual observer or coworker, because to fail to do that caused hurt feelings. So that is not, your definition of gender identity, it is gender expression.

So where is your line? If a word caused hurt feelings how would that rate against being placed on a male hospital ward?

That's sounds like your children's school got it badly wrong. I'm really sorry that happened. Did you talk to the school about it?