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“Queer tourists”
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GenuinelyCurious123 · 04/08/2022 19:52

For any LGBT+ people out there, how do you feel about celebrities such as Jameela Jamil or Demi Lovato claiming to be “queer” or non-binary?

Jameela Jamil is in a long-term relationship with a man.

Demi Lovato, as far as I know, is also in a heterosexual relationship and presents in a feminine way. She previously used they/them pronouns because she wasn’t sure which toilet to use - she didn’t feel male or female, you see - but now she feels more “feminine” again, she has gone back to she/her.

Please can someone explain: in what way are these women queer???

Doesn’t it annoy actual gay or trans people when these non-entities try to jump on the bandwagon just to generate publicity for themselves?

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DaisyWaldron · 04/08/2022 19:58

Most bisexuals in long-term relationships have a partner of the opposite sex. It's statistically far more likely than having a long term partner of the same sex. That doesn't make them heterosexual, any more than having a same-sex partner makes them lesbian or gay. And if you think that being bisexual in a mixed-sex relationship is the same as being straight, try reading some of the threads here where women discuss their attitudes to dating a bisexual man.

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BiscuitLover3678 · 04/08/2022 20:01

DaisyWaldron · 04/08/2022 19:58

Most bisexuals in long-term relationships have a partner of the opposite sex. It's statistically far more likely than having a long term partner of the same sex. That doesn't make them heterosexual, any more than having a same-sex partner makes them lesbian or gay. And if you think that being bisexual in a mixed-sex relationship is the same as being straight, try reading some of the threads here where women discuss their attitudes to dating a bisexual man.

👏👏👏

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BiscuitLover3678 · 04/08/2022 20:02

They might be queer op. The phrase ‘queer’ has been taken back by those who don’t feel they arent completely heterosexual or ‘straight’. Who are we to know if they are or are not?

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BiscuitLover3678 · 04/08/2022 20:03

  • Don’t feel they are

if you don’t get it then it’s probably because that description doesn’t apply to you. And lucky you because most of the world (including many people on mumsnet apparently) still don’t get it and there is still lots of judgement and stigma.
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GenuinelyCurious123 · 04/08/2022 20:04

I accept that she might not be 100% straight and therefore can claim to be queer, in her case it’s more the NB thing that confuses me.

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Elsiebear90 · 04/08/2022 20:14

Jamila Jamil conveniently came out as “queer” when she faced backlash for her role as a judge in a ballroom competition, Demi Levato just seems like an attention seeker. Queer is an extremely vague word which can mean almost anything these days, and unfortunately it does benefit a lot of people to opt into “oppression” (which is quite easy now with the million and one different gender identities and new “sexualities”).

So yes as a lesbian I take them “coming out as queer” with a pinch of salt until I see any evidence they are anything other than heterosexual, I also object to the term queer in general.

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GreyCouncil · 04/08/2022 20:19

GenuinelyCurious123 · 04/08/2022 20:04

I accept that she might not be 100% straight and therefore can claim to be queer, in her case it’s more the NB thing that confuses me.

She’s the person to ask,
the only answers you’ll get here is that she’s “attention seeking” “ or co-opting LGB to be cool” ~ but that’s what you want isn’t it? To have a cheap laugh and be bitchy because “gender”

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GenuinelyCurious123 · 04/08/2022 20:37

No, I don’t want to have a cheap laugh (it’s actually not funny at all) or be bitchy. I want to understand. From my point of view, I see 2 wealthy famous women claiming a label that doesn’t appear to belong to them and co-opting the struggles of actual gay or trans people in order to garner publicity for themselves, which is kind of disgraceful.

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DeliaTookATumble · 04/08/2022 20:39

Are you genuinely asking? Because I’m bisexual and I feel absolutely ok about it. Sometimes I date men, I’m still bisexual.

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Simonjt · 04/08/2022 20:41

DaisyWaldron · 04/08/2022 19:58

Most bisexuals in long-term relationships have a partner of the opposite sex. It's statistically far more likely than having a long term partner of the same sex. That doesn't make them heterosexual, any more than having a same-sex partner makes them lesbian or gay. And if you think that being bisexual in a mixed-sex relationship is the same as being straight, try reading some of the threads here where women discuss their attitudes to dating a bisexual man.

This.

Claiming someone is now straight because their a bisexual woman dating a man, is like saying single people not looking for love are asexual.

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DeliaTookATumble · 04/08/2022 20:41

I feel like you giving this the title ‘queer tourists’ and calling them non-entities means you’ve made your mind up already but hopefully I’m wrong.

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twomumsonebump · 04/08/2022 20:46

GenuinelyCurious123 · 04/08/2022 20:37

No, I don’t want to have a cheap laugh (it’s actually not funny at all) or be bitchy. I want to understand. From my point of view, I see 2 wealthy famous women claiming a label that doesn’t appear to belong to them and co-opting the struggles of actual gay or trans people in order to garner publicity for themselves, which is kind of disgraceful.

The key word here is 'appear'. Just because they look a certain way, you assume they ARE that way. People always assume I have a husband when they see me with my daughter and a wedding ring. I have a wife. Does that make me a queer tourist? Because I look straight?

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DeliaTookATumble · 04/08/2022 20:47

Also, some wealthy and famous people also have ‘the struggles of actual gay and trans people.’ Still human beings.

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rumred · 04/08/2022 20:47

It's wearing. As an lesbian growing up in the 60s and 70s - so grim I can't describe it-its fucking irritating that people claim labels like clothing items. Fucking pointless but also why do I give any fucks. It's the patriarchy. It's fucked

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DeliaTookATumble · 04/08/2022 20:51

I’m a bisexual who grew up in the 70s and I’m delighted that our work, our fighting, has given younger people the freedom to explore their sexuality fully and be open about it. This is what I wanted. But we’re all different.

Good on them.

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RoseslnTheHospital · 04/08/2022 20:51

The use of the word "queer" always jars for me as I am so completely accustomed to its previous use as an insult and its use when attacking LGB or T people, historically. But people who have no history of that use seem to want to use it instead of LGB as a descriptor. So, there's that.

The thing you have to remember is that people who have not been in a relationship nor ever had a sexual encounter will know who they are attracted to and who they are not. So it's totally reasonable for someone with no relationship or sexual history to describe themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or one of the other fashionable terms like pansexual. They are describing who they are attracted to, not who they are in a relationship with or who they have been in a relationship with.

"Non-binary" isn't a sexuality, it's an identity which makes a claim for the individual stating it that they are different to the rest of the population who are therefore "binary" in their identity as either masculine or feminine. I suppose that's where the "queer" definition comes from, as being other than the "norm". But if you don't see the norm as being a tightly defined binary of either masculine or feminine people, then that claim doesn't make much sense. As an old school feminist, I am critical of gender stereotypes and see definitions of masculine and feminine as part of the restrictive hierarchy of gender that's enforced by a patriarchal and misogynist society. I would never suggest that the majority of people have a strict binary identity of masculine or feminine, so it would make no sense to describe myself as non-binary.

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MrGHardy · 04/08/2022 20:59

Elsiebear90 · 04/08/2022 20:14

Jamila Jamil conveniently came out as “queer” when she faced backlash for her role as a judge in a ballroom competition, Demi Levato just seems like an attention seeker. Queer is an extremely vague word which can mean almost anything these days, and unfortunately it does benefit a lot of people to opt into “oppression” (which is quite easy now with the million and one different gender identities and new “sexualities”).

So yes as a lesbian I take them “coming out as queer” with a pinch of salt until I see any evidence they are anything other than heterosexual, I also object to the term queer in general.

Yea, I just say I am queer whenever people ask me. Shuts up a lot of people who think you don't have a right to talk about the issue because "you are not queer". And thanks to their own idiocy, they can't even challenge me, because by their own logic, if you reject gender stereotypes, you are queer.

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DeliaTookATumble · 04/08/2022 21:00

The trouble is, I might say, as an individual, “I wear trousers and can brandish an axe, I’m not typically feminine.” But society still puts the labels on us all. It starts at babyhood, pink and blue, little Princess vs little monster. That binary is still there, it’s everywhere. it’s insidious.

Maybe, just maybe, the declarations of famous and wealthy people letting us know they’re non-binary will help. Maybe it will start a conversation. Maybe things will change at a more important and visible level than me using ‘men’s’ radox.

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FrancescaContini · 04/08/2022 21:02

Agree with @RoseslnTheHospital

What is “queer”, anyway?

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FrancescaContini · 04/08/2022 21:03

DeliaTookATumble · 04/08/2022 21:00

The trouble is, I might say, as an individual, “I wear trousers and can brandish an axe, I’m not typically feminine.” But society still puts the labels on us all. It starts at babyhood, pink and blue, little Princess vs little monster. That binary is still there, it’s everywhere. it’s insidious.

Maybe, just maybe, the declarations of famous and wealthy people letting us know they’re non-binary will help. Maybe it will start a conversation. Maybe things will change at a more important and visible level than me using ‘men’s’ radox.

Re your first paragraph: it has only been like this for the past couple of decades. No such pink / blue crap for those of us born in the 70s.

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RoseslnTheHospital · 04/08/2022 21:04

I can't see how it will, Delia, because to be non-binary requires the binary to exist and the assumption to be that everyone else who doesn't declare a non-binary status is totally ok with society's enforced sex-based stereotypes and roles.

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ArcheryAnnie · 04/08/2022 21:11

"Queer" is a slur, and the use of it as a fashionable label by people who live almost completely heterosexual lives is hurtful to many actual gay, lesbian and bisexual people.

I now tend to assume that people who label themselves as "queer" have little experience or knowledge of LGB history, and either don't know or don't care that throwing around a slur that in the past was frequently accompanied by threats and thumps, and using as a "cool" label, is really offensive and hurtful to those of us who have experienced it as a slur.

I also now assume that people who describe themselves as "queer" are probably "spicy straight" - that is, they think being straight is boring, they acknowledge the possibility of same-sex attraction, in theory, but in practice have every intention of living a heterosexual life, and have no experience or connection to those who have had same-sex relationships. I have no problem with bisexuals who have opposite-sex relationships (I'm bisexual and my relationship history includes an opposite-sex one) but the reality is that if you are a bisexual who has never had an same-sex relationship, and is only ever in heterosexual relationships, then your life experiences and outlook will be vastly different from lesbians, gay men and bisexuals who do have to navigate the difficulties that come with having same-sex relationships. That's not biphobia, that's reality.

And the chances are that if you are under 30, you've never experienced the use of "queer" as a slur personally. That means it's not your slur to reclaim, and you should keep it out of your mouths.

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GreyCouncil · 04/08/2022 21:19

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

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FrancescaContini · 04/08/2022 21:27

@GreyCouncil

Genuine question: what do you mean by “I’m queer and homosexual”? What’s the difference in meaning, please?

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SarahAndQuack · 04/08/2022 21:41

I think that, on the whole, people are entitled to identify how they please, and sometimes the reasons for that identity won't be obvious to others.

I also think that using language like 'claiming to be' feeds into a very long-standing homophobic view, which treats all non-straight identities as more or less matters of fiction. Like Section 28 says, a 'pretended' identity. I think that, if we are going to say that gay people have a real, valid sexuality, then we can't then change our minds and say 'oh, but the bisexuals? They're probably pretending'.

I don't personally have much sense of what it'd be like to identify as non-binary, but I also recognise that gender is quite complicated. Not feeling comfortable in the men's or the women's toilets isn't just some kind of celeb fad - for a lot of people (especially butch lesbians) it's just a fact of life, and has been for decades.

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