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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)

761 replies

Justme56 · 04/08/2022 08:13

Sorry I can't share the article, but liked this:

What is the funniest thing that has happened in your job?

As a result of my work in this area, apparently becoming an object of admiration on Mumsnet [the Internet parents' forum] - improbable in many ways.

😁

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
SarahTG · 16/08/2022 11:30

Helleofabore · 16/08/2022 11:24

Please post your evidence of the Baroness' views? Let's have a look at it.

DYOR

Apart from what has been said above already Google 'Emma Nicholson' & 'Lesbian Avengers'

Helleofabore · 16/08/2022 11:42

Oh. Righto!

Another who cannot articulate their accusations but will denigrate a woman who has a long history in advocating for all females, women and girls.

And 1995 ... have you contacted the Baroness to discuss why she wouldn't sign the declaration? Or are you just happy to take that single line on the Lesbian Avengers that has no other information and make that decision?

Anything else you want to suggest?

Because the Baroness seems to be supportive of lesbian, gay and bisexual people, along with trans people, in her latest communications.

thisweekstop40 · 16/08/2022 11:58

@Helleofabore

For someone who says themselves that they are 'not an expert in LGBT matters' you've got quite a cheek telling the lesbians who have been protesting at and angry with Emma Nicolson since the 90's that they got her all wrong.

Helleofabore · 16/08/2022 12:06

I have been asking for information actually and nothing is forthcoming.

And I agree, some lesbians have been protesting 'her'. I am trying to understand why and asking for links with clear reasons.

Do you have anything more than your attempt to shame me for asking, thisweek? Anything else to add?

I am also pointing out that this is actually a distraction again from the topic at hand which is Ben Cooper. And loosely Stonewall.

I have also asked if those willing to point out issues with Emma Nicholson are very comfortable with spokespersons from Stonewall and every single quote those spokespeople have made. As that seems only fair.

Helleofabore · 16/08/2022 12:41

And isn't it strange how a view from 1995 is being used to discredit her voice. When there is a whole section of Stonewall dedicated to educate people and perhaps she has been 'educated' since 1995.

Yet some Stonewall supporters are keen to use something which has not be explained past 'she was protested for not signing the UN declaration of tolerance' to demonise her giving no consideration that she has been educated by Stonewall since?

The fact is, there is little beyond this single reference:

1995. Emma Nicholson Action.
A zap against the conservative MP Emma Nicholson, taking the form of a tea party-cum-protest on the lawn of her Devon fastness. She had refused to sign the UN Year of Tolerance declaration while it included sexual orientation.

on Lesbian Avengers website (which Sarah told me to DYOR, so I did). There could be some very valid reasons why she did not wish to sign the declaration. There could be that there is no reason that stands up to today's framing. Who knows?

Only a group who accepts readily what social media influencers say without applying their own critical thinking skills and looking for original source information seems to be one trying to shut down discussion. And declaring that if people are 'not experts' that they should STFU, yet are posting on a feminist board....

How very tolerant this group of supporters are showing themselves to be yet again?

Another great live demonstration. Thank you.

Terfydactyl · 16/08/2022 20:26

Hearach15 · 16/08/2022 00:06

I am curious about these people who have some very strong opinions on LGBT issues and what contribution they make to the LGBT community make. It's hardly a proactive question.

Presumably you find it uncomfortable because the answer is almost always "I do nothing for the LGBT community".

I have very strong opinions on child safeguarding, prostitution, misogyny, healthcare for women, and more
Yet my children are now adults, I've never met a prostitute, I suffer much less misogyny now than in the past as I'm old and invisible now, I require very little healthcare and haven't needed much in the last 50 years.
Still very strong opinions, that will not be ignored, shouted down, or traduced.
Should I not have these opinion, be allowed to Express these opinions just because it was never or is no longer an actual issue in my real life?

acollectionofshortstories · 16/08/2022 20:41

How do you know you've never met a prostitute?

Terfydactyl · 16/08/2022 21:54

acollectionofshortstories · 16/08/2022 20:41

How do you know you've never met a prostitute?

Ok no woman has admitted to me she was ever or is in that moment a prostitute.

Having said that, most women I know through work and so I know what their day job is, if they get up to prostituting themselves on a night or weekends well hell I hope they make sure their kids are looked after first.

Hearach15 · 16/08/2022 23:04

Helleofabore · 16/08/2022 10:01

The LGB Alliance (who I assume you refer to) are not "an organization that focuses on LGB people and puts their needs first though".

I was referring to any organisation that represents the L or the G or the B separately or together and without centring any other letter and certainly focusing on the sexual orientation of their members....

But it seems to me that you are rather obsessed with LGB Alliance. It really does rankle that you cannot control other people who are part of the LGB community and don't do what you want. You really are a great ambassador for Stonewall, I would say that they lucked out when they found you.

They were launched not to promote LGB rights but to oppose trans rights or "gender extremism" as Allison Bailey calls it:

twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1186767223555272719?s=20

Let's have a look at that tweet, shall we?

*This is an historic moment for the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual movement.
LGB Alliance launched in London tonight, and we mean business.
Spread the word, gender extremism is about to meet its match.^
11:12 PM · Oct 22, 2019

Meaning that a group of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual people have felt that Stonewall no longer represented them and that they felt the reason for that was the redefining their sexual orientation to be centring 'gender' and not the 'sex' of the people who fit that sexual orientation.

And, you think that this tweet is some kind of 'gotcha'?

They rarely campaign on LGB issues e.g. They didn't even put out a tweet to celebrate lesbians getting free IVF the other day.

They do campaign for LGB issues. They also were founded by lesbians. Females. Who, by nature of being female, also realise that there is that other side of 'getting free IVF' that you don't seem to be able to acknowledge even though it was explained to you pages ago.

You know, that there is another probably more greater concern about fertility equality - that of hyper stimulating the eggs of women and even very young adults to 'harvest' eggs for IVF use, plus the demand to have access to surrogates.

You know, the issues that exploit females and have huge potential to cause females harm. And remember, I also pointed out that the children of donor conception and surrogacy are raising ethical alarms about this too.

But, this is yet another example of an activist who simply cannot acknowledge that there is quite often a harmful side to females to the demands of Stonewall.

And they host people who actively oppose LGB rights because they agree with them on trans rights e.g. Baroness Nicholson who thinks lesbians getting married "degrades women" and thinks two women having kids is "neither normal nor natural". She also wanted gay men who have consensual sex with 20 year-old men to be chucked in jail.

And the Baroness has also supported many other LGB rights issues. You cannot have it both ways hearache.

Plus, again, you don't seem to ever be able to understand how good and robust acts are passed through the Westminster system. If any MP can see a conflict with another group for a bill that is before them and to be voted on, they have to feel certain that protections are in place to protect those people.

In the case of the Baroness, she felt that the protections of women and children were being risked in the wording of that particular bill. And she has been working to protect women and children since the 1980s and has worked with the UN and the EU courts to protect women and children. So, she couldn't support that particular wording of the act.

Let's have another look at the tweet you refer to. The 'degrading one'.

twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1270703409931452416?s=20&t=CSagMWOpQkNQxFn-BjV0OQ

Because I foresaw (with some justification) that it would lead to degrading the status of women and of girls. This as we now see has happened and is continuing, so my sex are as a binary class in difficult now.

So, you have put a little bit of your own twist there, as usual.

She was discussing the protections of women and girls in conjunction with the wording of a particular bill that was being voted on.

And as far as the 'neither normal nor natural', to be clear, two people of the same sex cannot biologically have children. Or are you saying that they can? And are you saying that a family where the children have an active relationship with BOTH biological parents who care for the wellbeing of those children is not better than a family where the children do not know one of their biological parents, even if they are loved and cared for by the people, one of which may be a biological parent, they live with?

Can you please provide proof of this? Because that is not what we are hearing from those children who are now adults of families where they did not and may still not know, one or both of their biological parents.

I look forward to seeing that proof. Otherwise, you have repeated your slurs against Baroness Nicholson from Pink New. It is getting repetitive, but hey, I am sure someone reading along here will have not come across this attempt of yours before.

So, are you really happy with everything previously said and advocated for by actual spokespeople of Stonewall:

Peter Tatchell .... are you really comfortable about his writings on paedophilia? Really? Shall we post them for all the readers to see.

Why are you comfortable with Peter Tatchell being a spokesperson for Stonewall?

Shall I continue? We have plenty of examples collected here on MN.

Or shall I simply repost the quotes from actual transitioned males. You saw them on another thread. I am very happy to do this if it is helpful to make you actually start thinking about just where your constant attempt to discredit people via ad hominem attacks.

And attempts to discredit organisations via totalitarian tactics and misrepresentation.

Now, this. Yet again.

As someone who is "not an expert" on LGBT issues I do not expect you to know this but the above are all examples of homophobia.

Yes, attempting to monster LGB Alliance the way you are probably does speak of homophobia on your part. Posters have been through this with you on thread after thread by now. Lesbians and bisexual people have explained that they want no part in supporting a group that redefines their sexual orientation.

So... good pick up on that. You may well have been very homophobic in your efforts there.

Thank you for explaining.

"the Baroness has also supported many other LGB rights issues"

If you believe that then you'll believe me when I tell you that Margaret Thatcher was a great champion of the trade union movement.

Hearach15 · 16/08/2022 23:08

Helleofabore · 16/08/2022 10:13

Just to be clear for those who may think that hearache is acting with any good faith at all.

LGB Alliance tweeted about Wickes banners pictured 'No LGB without the T' and a 'ban conversion therapy for ALL'.

They tweeted:

We must assume that Wickes have not understood the significance of this slogan. They cannot seriously believe that lesbians, gay men and bisexuals may not organise in our own interests without the permission of trans people.

twitter.com/ALLIANCELGB/status/1556636736817700864?s=20&t=_H9PC0cpYsAGPmhBCtTRew

It is clearly referring to their political support, like Hearache's to the move to suppress alternative LGB groups and organisations that do not centre the 'T'.

Hearache's post of ' I guess I disagree with the LGB Alliance on this issue who seem to think that it's okay to sue a company for being in favour of a ban on conversion therapy. So much for a free society! ', is just another attempt to spread misinformation.

They also said that Wickes supporting a ban on conversion therapy meant there could be legal action against the firm.

The LGB Alliance clearly only believes in free speech if you do not support trans rights.

Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)
Hearach15 · 16/08/2022 23:12

SarahTG · 16/08/2022 11:22

Watching people trying to spin Baroness Nicolson's long history of homophobia never gets unfunny.

It's truly bizarre. She voted against equal marriage and wants gay men to be put in prison for having consensual sex with 20 year olds. An awful bigot.

Hearach15 · 16/08/2022 23:17

Helleofabore · 16/08/2022 12:06

I have been asking for information actually and nothing is forthcoming.

And I agree, some lesbians have been protesting 'her'. I am trying to understand why and asking for links with clear reasons.

Do you have anything more than your attempt to shame me for asking, thisweek? Anything else to add?

I am also pointing out that this is actually a distraction again from the topic at hand which is Ben Cooper. And loosely Stonewall.

I have also asked if those willing to point out issues with Emma Nicholson are very comfortable with spokespersons from Stonewall and every single quote those spokespeople have made. As that seems only fair.

They protested against her because she said lesbian families were "neither normal nor natural" and said "every child deserves a mother and father".

If you don't think lesbians can raise children together you're homophobe and misogynist like she is.

Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)
Hearach15 · 16/08/2022 23:37

thisweekstop40 · 16/08/2022 11:58

@Helleofabore

For someone who says themselves that they are 'not an expert in LGBT matters' you've got quite a cheek telling the lesbians who have been protesting at and angry with Emma Nicolson since the 90's that they got her all wrong.

Indeed, breath taking arrogance and complicity in Nicholson's homophobia and misogyny.

Furries · 17/08/2022 01:33

Hearach15 · 16/08/2022 23:37

Indeed, breath taking arrogance and complicity in Nicholson's homophobia and misogyny.

I will go away and read about this, as I want to be informed as much as possible.

Am still interested in posts a page or two above - why do you vehemently state that a man has given birth? Do you not understand that this is impossible?

Do you not see how simply posting “Freddy is a bloke” really doesn’t help your argument? Those kinds of posts make me veer away from what you’re probably trying to achieve. EVERYBODY knows that it’s impossible for men to give birth.

Sex really does matter when it comes to reproduction and health (and a whole lot else, but I’m prioritising here).

If you’ve got more valid arguments, then please post them. But surely you can see it’s really not helping your stance to insist that men can give birth.

Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 04:50

See hearache,
others will have read your supposedly clever come back and realise you never addressed the other questions and issues raised in the post.

Are they too inconvenient?

While you are monstering Baroness Nicholson, you like to ignore (and the others who popped on the thread) the spokespeople of
Stonewall and their
well published views. People who are influencing policies of many of the UK organisations.

Just so you remember, I brought three to your attention:

Peter Tatchell

Jane Fae

and Nancy Kelley.

And remember the quotes directly from transitioned males ?

Fully comfortable with them?

Your monstering of Baroness Nicholson has been repeated over different threads. You keep repeating the same old trope from the Pink news. With no actual original source links with any type of critical thinking applied.

So, please answer the question and your lack of answer will be considered as important as your answer.

Are you happy with 100% of what Peter Tatchell, Jane Fae and Nancy Kelley have said in the media?

Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 05:04

Hearach15 · 16/08/2022 23:37

Indeed, breath taking arrogance and complicity in Nicholson's homophobia and misogyny.

You are being mighty hypocritical again Hearache.

Please post actual original source evidence and let’s discuss it. But your regurgitation of Penis News and the pp’s reference to a single paragraph with no other evidence backing it up tends to indicate you have nothing more.

And you still seem to like to ignore that at the time she voted against same sex marriage, and has explained why, Stonewall and other organisations were not fully supporting same sex marriage - because of the word ‘marriage’. You must be very young to not know this, or simply taking delight in monstering the Baroness.

You have had lesbians explain it to you on other threads hearache. This really is repetitive. ‘Marriage’ was a word that many LGB people didn’t want to use to describe their same sex relationships.

This was the same in other countries too.

No ‘expertise’ in being LGB needed to understand the debates that were widely reported at the time. And it is others who have told you the history and their own feelings about it.

You might like to conveniently forget this has been explained to you by LGB people on other threads, but long time readers reading across threads tend not to forget this.

Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 05:14

In fact, hearache on a live and active other thread tonight you are being told by other posters the same thing about same sex marriage and Baroness Nicholson….

So please answer the question. Are you 100% comfortable in 100% of the views expressed by those actually representing Stonewall?

Peter Tatchell
Jane Fae
Nancy Kelley

Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 05:48

I also see your usual tactic of cherry picking one line from a long post and giving a pithy non-answer to avoid engaging with that long post missed 99% of the post.

Which was actually in answer to your superficially bad take on what the Baroness has said in the past.
. . .

Let's have another look at the tweet you refer to. The 'degrading one'.

twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1270703409931452416?s=20&t=CSagMWOpQkNQxFn-BjV0OQ

Because I foresaw (with some justification) that it would lead to degrading the status of women and of girls. This as we now see has happened and is continuing, so my sex are as a binary class in difficult now.

So, you have put a little bit of your own twist there, as usual.

She was discussing the protections of women and girls in conjunction with the wording of a particular bill that was being voted on.

And as far as the 'neither normal nor natural', to be clear, two people of the same sex cannot biologically have children.

Or are you saying that they can?

And are you saying that a family where the children have an active relationship with BOTH biological parents who care for the wellbeing of those children is not better than a family where the children do not know one of their biological parents, even if they are loved and cared for by the people, one of which may be a biological parent, they live with?

Can you please provide proof of this? Because that is not what we are hearing from those children who are now adults of families where they did not and may still not know, one or both of their biological parents.

I look forward to seeing that proof. Otherwise, you have repeated your slurs against Baroness Nicholson from Pink News. It is getting repetitive, but hey, I am sure someone reading along here will have not come across this attempt of yours before.

Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 11:59

Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 05:14

In fact, hearache on a live and active other thread tonight you are being told by other posters the same thing about same sex marriage and Baroness Nicholson….

So please answer the question. Are you 100% comfortable in 100% of the views expressed by those actually representing Stonewall?

Peter Tatchell
Jane Fae
Nancy Kelley

Don't forget, while we are on the 'purity' theme .... let's bring it back to Stonewall at least.

Are you 100% comfortable in 100% of the views expressed by those actually representing Stonewall?

Peter Tatchell
Jane Fae
Nancy Kelley

Yes? No?

Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 12:55

Oh... and just for the purity posters....

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stonewall-is-split-by-row-about-samesex-marriages-2095468.html

Same sex marriage was not something universally accepted by all the LGB community as has already been said by other members of the LGB community to Hearache across numerous threads.

It was a contentious issue that had Stonewall members against it and Stonewall had the courage to at least open themselves to debate about it.

That was then.... so 2010!

There seems to be no debate allowed now, it seems.

Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 17:20

Hearach15 · 12/08/2022 22:37

"I have not misgendere anyone".

Absolute nonsense, you keep referring to trans men as 'females'. That is misgendering. And you've claimed before that you're "well read" when it comes to trans issues!?

You let the cat out of the bag when you said you were a non expert on LGBT issues. If you don't even know what misgendering is then need to go back and learn some basics.

Oh no! Hearache

Sadly, it has been confirmed by the committee who looked into complaints about the Surrey PCC that :

Concerning the PC's comment that transgender cyclist Emily Bridges is "male", the Complaints Sub-Committee did not consider the PCC to have misgendered her as the wordwas in reference to sex rather than gender, and there was no misuse of pronouns. The PCC is entitled to express her views on such matters in the course of public debate, and although some people might find these views offensive or distressing, the sub-committee did not consider the views were expressed using disrespectful or gratuitous language in the context they were used.

Look! It is right here!

twitter.com/AlixWzl/status/1559849446518693900?s=20&t=u0kGsdA683rPIeJdRg5Zkg

I mean... I look forward to clarification from Nancy as to which bits she feels is not in keeping with Maya's case. And it seems that alix weasel is going back to see where the complaints committee got their advice from ... but perhaps Stonewall's teachings on what is considered misgendering is also being ignored with other guidance sort somewhere else.

I mean, do you think that this committee would have not sort out some very fine legal advice in this case as protection. After all, this was a complaint against a Police Chief Constable.... the committee kind of really needs to get that decision right.

But I look forward to your usual comeback of 'I would rather trust Stonewall than any random organisation paying money to get unbiased interpretations of the law!!', and your usual inane comebacks. They are kind of predictable by now.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/08/2022 17:53

Absolute nonsense, you keep referring to trans men as 'females'. That is misgendering.

Don't be ridiculous. 'Female' refers to sex, not gender. Referring to transmen as females is merely correct sexing. 'Misgendering' is about pronouns.

Any transmen who have given birth have unequivocally proved that they are female, that they have not changed their sex.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 17/08/2022 18:18

Has Hearache expressed any concern for "trans men" being systematically excluded from cervical screening reminders, yet?

Or has it all been continuous sex denial?

Transwomen are male. Transmen are female. It's not "misgendering" to say so. It is correct sexing, and sex =/=gender. You doughnut.

MajorieEks · 17/08/2022 18:44

I thought this tweet was particularly relevant to this thread, re: Ben cooper, is it a win or not etc

mobile.twitter.com/AlixWzl/status/1559849452512362497

Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)
Helleofabore · 17/08/2022 19:39

Maya lost and still totally fucked us.

I read that earlier and laughed at the appropriateness to this thread.