How is this offensive?

[KnittingNeedles]

DD is 19 and volunteers in Oxfam. This poster is currently in the window of the store she works in - it was a Pride thing but she thinks they have just not got round to taking it out.

www.oxfam.org.uk/oxfam-in-action/oxfam-blog/celebrating-pride-2022/

The way she - and I - interpret the poster is that the charity is welcoming and inclusive, and however you define yourself, you are welcome in store. Although I know the charity has a reputation for being very "woke", this is a very bland message really.

DD was on the till yesterday and some woman came into the store demanding she remove the poster. DD asked why - woman said it was "forced speech" and a "very political statement" and ranted on about Stonewall for a bit. DD is fairly clued up on the whole sex/gender debate and tried to explain that's not what it was about, it was a message of tolerance and acceptance. Customer was having none of it and went off saying she was going to complain.

I'm confused. I'm as gender critical as they come but surely part of that is accepting that although I don't personally buy into gender other people do, and I respect their right to hold that opinion, just as I hope they respect my right to disagree with them. And that however you define yourself, of course you should be treated with respect in any shop. No I won't be giving you my pronouns as those should be blindingly obvious, but the poster isn't saying you won't be served without sharing yours.

Bemused.

I think you should warn your DD not to engage but refer the customer to Oxfam management - they can write in if no one is present. She could put her own views across which could be taken as those of the charity and get into trouble. A simple reply of "I'm sorry I can't discuss with you, but please put your view to Oxfam management" is all I'd be saying.

That is very good advice and can apply to many situations an employee/volunteer encounters.

It's a political statement rather than a neutral, welcoming one. We know this because people - mainly women - have been hounded, attacked, abused online, doxed, lost their jobs - because they don't believe in 'gender' identity even though it is a protected belief.

Oxfam should have given your DD customer services and complaints' training. The best way to defuse a situation is to thank the customer for bringing the issue to your attention and say you'll escalate it.

I'm confused. I'm as gender critical as they come but

Aye, right. My TRA detector's flashing.

Was it oxfam that was notably staffed with sexual predators in many of its poverty stricken foreign locations, or was that another charity?

I saw that poster in Oxfam and Cats Protection, I had some nice things, including some scrap gold, I was going to donate, there, I walked past and took my donation to a hospice charity shop. Hopefully they were not Stonewalled.

I'm gender criticaltoo but I don't get why it is offensive? Maybe those posting the sarcastic responses could just explain? This board is such a hostile place.

Actually the shop can put whatever they want in the window as long as it is not breaking any law. There is no law saying that you should not promote the Pride event...

And this lady is then perfectly entitled not to shop there if this does not match her values.

It was wrong of her to have a go at your daughter. What she is suggesting is censorship. People are entitled to have different opinions and she can choose to spend her money elsewhere.

This. Yes it's a fairly bland poster and message as they go but it just seems a bit virtue signally and unnecessary? I mean why wouldn't trans people assume they'd not be welcomed in a flipping charity shop? It's hardly the women's toilets or swimming podium or somewhere where the gc rights debate is raging - I can't imagine why anyone would need to be specifically assured of their safety and welcome in an oxfam shop more than any other public space.

So if there is little to no point in it then it is just a bit of a waste of money that surely could have been spent better elsewhere - even if its elsewhere with a focus on trans people in a way that might actually affect them!

I agree with the argument, but not the delivery.

The woman should've gone home & emailed/tweeted Oxfam to say she was looking forward to shopping at their Blank St, Anytown branch but was dissuaded by the hostile, homophobic & misogynistic poster so went elsewhere.

No point berating the poor volunteer.

(spidey senses also on full alert - 'GC as they come', aye?)

😆😂😜

I imagine that the woman in question just felt that she needed to make it clear that she did not find the poster welcoming at all. She'd had enough of just keeping quiet.

It's too bad she ranted, but I have noticed that once people work themselves up to actually say something about these things, they do tend to rant. Maybe it's the adrenaline.

I do wonder why shops and organizations do this stuff that is basically outside of their remit. Oxfam exists to help certain groups of people. There are so many people who think that is important, or want to contribute. People who have different viewpoints on gender ideology and lots of other ideas.

So basically they are limiting the people who will contribute to their mission.

It was the same with Amnesty INternational. SO many people could get behind their focus on political prisoners and free speech. Then they decided to basically alienate anyone who had qualms about abortion, in particular Catholics who had
tended to be big AI supporters. They they added stuff about sex work, and gender ideology.

Basically they make themselves into these package partisan types of organizations that only harness the support of people in line with a particular political ideology. In the case of AI it completely undermined their mission, too, which was dependent on being apolitical to a significant degree.

The best way for a shop to welcome everyone is to have a welcoming atmosphere and to be respectful and friendly to anyone who comes in.

😄😃😆

I wandered onto these boards as I kept seeing people saying so and so knows what a woman is. I sought explanation as to why this phrase keeps turning up. I am not a whole lot wiser as a result but do now know that some people think that another group of people need to be cured of how they are.

@Krustykrabpizza Ok - caveat there's no way I would go into a shop and yell at a sales assistant over it but if you're genuinely trying to understand why people have an emotional response that is different to yours that's a fair question.

I have marched in pride parades, I have purchased and worn rainbow flag merchandise. This symbol was meaningful and important. It helped me to feel safe and valuable.

BUT there have been decisions made which changed that. When stonewall etc. changed LGB to LGBT there were some (un?) intended and by most unnoticed consequences.

That heterosexual men feel entitled to sleep with homosexual women, frankly does not surprise me. That heterosexual men feel that homosexual women would enjoy sex with them if they just tried harder does not surprise me. That the LGB community would agree with them was a betrayal which still hurts.

I might phrase this as choosing heterosexual men over homosexual women. And for me, when they chose heterosexual men over homosexual women they became a men's right organisation not an organisation that fought for the rights of people who experienced same sex attraction.

So yeah such a poster declares support of Gender Identity theory (which I find to be sexist and homophobic) whilst using the rainbow flag the bullies took off us. So yeah it is a bit upsetting to see a poster like this and no it doesn't make me feel welcome respected or included.

It seems more likely to me that the person who went into the shop and yelled was a member of one of the many homophobic churches though and has a rainbow => encouraging immorality stance.

Because the sign is a political statement, it's aligning the charity with a specific ideology.

That particular ideology has been very active in denouncing people who disagree with it, and also the reason many people disagree with it is that they think it is ultimately bad for women.

As such it basically is unwelcoming to anyone who disagrees with that ideology.

There's also the corporate Rainbow washing element which many people find pretty distasteful in general.

They had employed a senior manager who was head of the Haiti relief effort who managed to collect at least 2 others who were als public in their abuse and the whistleblower was threatened.

The note the different ethical responses im the article which sets a cultural tone.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/15/timeline-oxfam-sexual-exploitation-scandal-in-haiti

Thank you for explaining

Yes, I am wondering this too.

I was just coming back to remind the thread that this was a list of pronouns poster not the rainbow flag. Declaring pronouns, forcing others to use your pronouns and getting upset when people get them wrong screams gender identity ideology. It is not inclusive. I don't have a gender identity so it doesn't include me.

Do you have pronouns?

No one "has" pronouns, they are a grammatical construction .

You phrase that as if they were some kind of pet. I'm passionate about grammar, but not to the extent that my care for grammar supplants my cat.

She will have the usual subject, object, possessive and reflexive, in first, second, and third person. I will note here that I have never seen her misuse the reflexive, no matter the person or number.

When she is part of a group, she'll stretch to 1st person plural pronouns, unless the cost of living crisis worsens.

Does that serve to answer your question?

On a far more important note, let us discuss how Oxfam dealt with finding out that its white male employees were using Oxfam aid to extort sexual services from women in crisis overseas, like Haiti.

By... blaming white women.

The message seems to be a woman who reports rape is a contemptible white feminist': Outrage at Oxfam staff training document blaming 'privileged white women' over root causes of sexual violence

I am not even going to answer the question because the poster has bought out a whole other rabbit hole in my mind.

It’s dawned on me the colours. Dark blue for men, purple for women (because pink is offensive to many) and then we get to the trans flag colours. Why are they baby colours? I am pretty sure most would describe that blue as ‘baby blue’, and the pink probably ‘pastel pink’, rather than ‘baby pink’ but in my mind I still recognise it as baby girl colour. Why not neon pink and cobalt blue for all the pride, vibrancy and confidence that you would imagine you would want a trans flag to represent. It’s odd.

Sorry completely off topic but it’s the first time it’s dawned on me.