How is this offensive?

[KnittingNeedles]

DD is 19 and volunteers in Oxfam. This poster is currently in the window of the store she works in - it was a Pride thing but she thinks they have just not got round to taking it out.

www.oxfam.org.uk/oxfam-in-action/oxfam-blog/celebrating-pride-2022/

The way she - and I - interpret the poster is that the charity is welcoming and inclusive, and however you define yourself, you are welcome in store. Although I know the charity has a reputation for being very "woke", this is a very bland message really.

DD was on the till yesterday and some woman came into the store demanding she remove the poster. DD asked why - woman said it was "forced speech" and a "very political statement" and ranted on about Stonewall for a bit. DD is fairly clued up on the whole sex/gender debate and tried to explain that's not what it was about, it was a message of tolerance and acceptance. Customer was having none of it and went off saying she was going to complain.

I'm confused. I'm as gender critical as they come but surely part of that is accepting that although I don't personally buy into gender other people do, and I respect their right to hold that opinion, just as I hope they respect my right to disagree with them. And that however you define yourself, of course you should be treated with respect in any shop. No I won't be giving you my pronouns as those should be blindingly obvious, but the poster isn't saying you won't be served without sharing yours.

Bemused.

’woman said it was "forced speech" and a "very political statement"’

Well it’s obviously a political statement. Are you saying you think otherwise? It indicates to all who openly disagree with gender ideology that Oxfam as a charity (though not necessarily it’s local volunteers) will probably not be actively “inclusive” towards them, and indeed might hostile to women in certain circumstances. I wouldn’t go in and demand it be taken down, but having seen it, I’d probably be less likely to go in.

What does your dd think of the poster @KnittingNeedles ?

FlibbertyGiblets · Yesterday 18:20
Sure is a chin scratcher, yes indeedy
😂😂this did make me laugh flibbertygiblets

It's just ridiculous though. Are they suggesting that before they would have thrown rotten tomatoes at gay people who went into their shop? But they won't now. See poster for details.

I wonder if next month they will hang a poster announcing that they will not discriminate against 'blacks and the Irish'. Come in folks. You are welcome here.

Probably not.

You need to teach your daughter to just listen and say 'I'll feed your views back to the manager" as there is no use engaging. The two wings in this argument are arguing over everyone else's heads, both sides demand purity of thought and complete agreement.

It's just ridiculous though. Are they suggesting that before they would have thrown rotten tomatoes at gay people who went into their shop?

Quite. I'd object on grounds of stupidity for starters.

I think people would prefer Oxfam spent donated money on helping those struggling, rather than dumb virtue signalling for the woke points.

Not really. One side just demands rights for women as well as men. The 'they're as bad as each other ' argument is a dismissive tool the men's rights activists encourage in order to silence women.

I'm not going to attempt to justify my views/position to you as so often trying to discuss with any nuance has been a waste of time, but I am just going to repeat that the purity required from BOTH sides is off putting. Polling on this topic is pretty clear. GC feminists may very well be right - but do they want to win the policy battle?

She hadn't noticed it was still there to be honest. She interpreted it as an "everyone's welcome" message though and really didn't think it was worth getting worked up about.

Also agree that I haven't seen disability pride posters/info anywhere, in any shop. Those would be more appropriate for charity shops to be honest as many people volunteering have a disability of some sort.

I also think there is a massive disconnect between the "culture" (for want of a better word) in Oxfam head office and the "culture" in the stores. The head office staff are mostly young, left-wing, woke. The store staff/volunteers are a very different demographic, in DD's store they are 80% female, 80% over 45, middle class, not campaigning lefties. I do remember the fuss about the card game thing but that game was never sold in the store where DD works, it never came into stock. The only change DD noticed was that the application form for volunteering does ask for your name and then gender identity rather than sex.

I agree with the woman that it is a political statement and I too find it offensive and hostile towards women.

I don't agree with berating shop staff about it.

Repeat it all you want - there is still no proof and 'both sides are as bad as each other' is clearly a matter of spin not fact. The GC lobby are not trying to remove people's rights, having not written documents about how to sneak in regressive changes to policy and language and have not sent people death and rape threats.

Or maybe they have both posters up already?

but I am just going to repeat that the purity required from BOTH sides is off putting

What purity are you talking about from the GC side? I honestly don't know what you mean.

Oh gawd, the idea of 'marching in solidarity' with a load of people promoting the homophobic dangerous gibberish that is the new religion of the T+ isn't my idea of 'inclusive'. That's my idea of hell.

You know what they say about complaints - they are actually a gift as most people - the vast majority- don't complain. They just take their business elsewhere.

I would like to see some research on how people respond to aggressively rainbowed marketing. It is an overt political symbol. Divisive and I would say has the opposite effect of making anyone - except those who support a narrow political view - feel included.

The progressive rainbow is hostile and alienating for many people.

No, you probably don't.

The polling of the general public shows this is remains a low priority issue and when things get too heated everyone not aligned to what they perceive to be 'a side' zones out.

Culture wars are off-putting to most, this issue should not be allowed to be turned into a culture war issue as it is far more important than that. The way this issue has got turned into a political football is not helpful as it weakens the core position and sows division.

No, you probably don't.

But what specific 'purity' are you talking about that's so offputting?

Lots of things are important, but not top of mind for the public. As it happens, people do want to engage with this topic when the specifics are spelled out.

TheKeatingFive · Today 08:43

Lots of things are important, but not top of mind for the public. As it happens, people do want to engage with this topic when the specifics are spelled out.

I’d be interested to know the results of polls based on the responses of women over 21 to potential clashes of trans rights with women and children’s well being/rights.

Then one based on men’s views.

I don’t think You Gov has done sex based polls yet, or am I wrong?

Rainbow flags in marketing have been a thing for about two decades. There are various arguments in support of and against, from various different groups. Lots of LGB people are opposed to 'rainbow washing'.

Rainbow capitalism is a phrase:

'the recent surge in popularity of Daniel Quasar’s Progress Flag may not be as widespread as it would seem. Only 11% of respondents chose the Progress Flag as most representative of Pride Month.'

clydegroup.com/new-survey-shows-divided-perception-on-pride-flag-rainbow-capitalism-among-company-stakeholders/

'Rainbow capitalism is pandering'

'we, queer and straight people alike, need to demand that the pandering be done in good faith.'

www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-rainbow-capitalism-pride-month-1.6042417

As is rainbow-washing:

www.marketingweek.com/ritson-transforming-logos-rainbow-washing/

www.marketplace.org/2021/06/28/the-colorful-history-and-precarious-future-of-rainbow-washing/

The latest YouGov poll does actually split by sex. Sadly, 'be kind' and female socialization seem to be showing up as a result.

The polling of the general public shows this is remains a low priority issue and when things get too heated everyone not aligned to what they perceive to be 'a side' zones out.

Depends what you ask, doesn't it?

Ask my dad about 'trans rights' and you'd get a 'meh'. Ask him what he thinks about blokes going into his granddaughters' toilets at schools and you'd have to fetch his blood pressure tablets.

It’s a shame women can’t identify their way out of being disproportionately affected by poverty.

Perhaps this is what she was thinking of.

But on the other hand, I don't think that sending out a "all welcome" message is so awful.

Of course it's not. I think one of two things was going on:

1. A lot of people see the pride flag (particularly the new one that this is an adaptation of) as synonymous with Genderism and so threatening to women's rights. Whereas a lot of people using the pride flag still see it as about being welcoming and tolerent.
2. Alternatively some people never liked the pride movement, seeing it as attacking their 'traditional' values, and use the latest controversies to fuel attacks they would have made anyway.

If you've got a better idea about how to keep malea out of female sports, prison, rape crisis groups, toilets etc, I'm up for hearing it.