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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Doctors set out medical guidelines for trans men giving birth - Times

139 replies

Igneococcus · 27/07/2022 06:49

Can't see this shared yet:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1471a020-0d2c-11ed-a4af-79eb4b98fc31?shareToken=6ca0e34c47283d9e0ec2cb0554eafa64

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babyjellyfish · 28/07/2022 10:45

And FM , despite their apparent research and supposed intelligence, did not understand that radical mastectomies would severely reduce any chance of breastfeeding, and was also unaware ( even on their second pregnancy) that the effects of testosterone use in a female pregnant body severely reduces the size of the placenta thus putting the baby’s growth and development at risk.

Somewhat naively, I assumed that trans men would not be prescribed testosterone during pregnancy.

Quite apart from the risk to the placenta, it can cause a female foetus with an XX karyotype to be born with male genitalia.

I genuinely hope Freddy's son has a Y chromosome.

viques · 28/07/2022 10:54

babyjellyfish · 28/07/2022 10:45

And FM , despite their apparent research and supposed intelligence, did not understand that radical mastectomies would severely reduce any chance of breastfeeding, and was also unaware ( even on their second pregnancy) that the effects of testosterone use in a female pregnant body severely reduces the size of the placenta thus putting the baby’s growth and development at risk.

Somewhat naively, I assumed that trans men would not be prescribed testosterone during pregnancy.

Quite apart from the risk to the placenta, it can cause a female foetus with an XX karyotype to be born with male genitalia.

I genuinely hope Freddy's son has a Y chromosome.

I don’t think FM did take it during their pregnancies, which is in a way even more worrying. If it still continues to have an effect on a gestating foetus , how long does the effect last, when would it be “safe” to attempt a pregnancy. I assume that transmen would only want to discontinue testosterone for the shortest possible time to minimise any lessening of its effect for themselves.

babyjellyfish · 28/07/2022 10:56

Part of me wonders whether being on some sort of LARC should be a prerequisite for being prescribed testosterone, but that's an ethical minefield in terms of bodily autonomy.

How can we reconcile the rights of the trans man to take testosterone and also reproduce, with the safety of any child they might conceive?

viques · 28/07/2022 11:12

I agree, but if you can’t even get people to recognise and respond to the issue that they are putting their potential children at risk then legislating is not going to stop it. It’s like drink driving, we actually have adequate legislation and drink drivers fully understand the risks they are putting themselves and others through, but some people choose to ignore it. You can’t legislate for selfish behaviours, especially when people think their needs trump other peoples rights.

FannyCann · 28/07/2022 11:15

*Somewhat naively, I assumed that trans men would not be prescribed testosterone during pregnancy.

Quite apart from the risk to the placenta, it can cause a female foetus with an XX karyotype to be born with male genitalia.*

Another one who thought that. We have heard that fish in rivers develop DSDs as a result of hormones from HRT etc being flushed into the sewage system and into the water. Why wouldn't anyone worry about the effects of actual maternal medication in the developing foetus?

I have also seen reports that the testosterone gel can somehow be absorbed by children through close contact with the user so restarting soon after the birth is also concerning.

FannyCann · 28/07/2022 11:17

Just the first report google offered, I haven't done extensive research on this.

ec.europa.eu/environment/integration/research/newsalert/pdf/376na1_en.pdf

Doctors set out medical guidelines for trans men giving birth - Times
cherryface66 · 28/07/2022 12:57

@babyjellyfish

I've got massive concerns about the hysterectomies/oophorectomies being offered to trans men. It's not just about fertility, although that's important. But we KNOW what happens to female bodies after these surgeries, particularly if both ovaries are removed, because we've been doing it for years for women with endometriosis. It ruins your health. And in this case, we're talking about putting healthy pre-menopausal females into surgical menopause. I don't understand how surgery which massively increases risk of heart disease, osteoporosis and dementia as well as depression can be justified in the absence of severe ill health. It is castration. It is irreversible. There's clear evidence to show that women who have oophorectomies die younger than women who don't. And that's before you get to the weight gain, hair loss, continence issues, dry eyes, cracked teeth, vaginal atrophy, scar pain, pain in the vaginal vault, memory loss, sweats, headaches, insomnia - I could go on but you get the idea. It used to be routine to remove ovaries with a hysterectomy to reduce the risk of ovarian cancer, until it became clear that the risks of castration are far higher than the cancer risk, especially if you are young and will be without normal levels of oestrogen for a long time.

It worries me how many people are pretending this surgery is something different in this group. It's not. (Also can confirm that you remain 100% female after hysterectomy/oophorectomy).

babyjellyfish · 28/07/2022 13:28

I think part of the issue is that trans men can't have any kind of "bottom surgery" without having a hysterectomy. So without it, no matter how much testosterone they take and however much they might resemble a man with clothes on, as soon as they take their underwear off it's a different story.

Buck Angel, for example, absolutely passes as a man in photos. But as far as I am aware, he hasn't had any kind of bottom surgery. He is quite open about complications of medical transition on Twitter, and has mentioned vaginal atrophy a few times.

Of course, phalloplasties and metoidioplasties don't result in anything vaguely resembling or functioning as a penis anyway, and that's something patients need to be realistic about.

JellySaurus · 28/07/2022 13:32

We know the irreversible damage that is done to female bodies by puberty blockers, yet they continue to be prescribed. We know the irreversible damage that is done to female bodies by cross-sex hormones, yet they continue to be prescribed. I don't understand how any of these treatments can be justified in the absence of severe ill health.

And these females remain 100% female with these treatments.

Sad
FannyCann · 28/07/2022 13:33

There are a couple of FOIs I have seen regarding so called "bottom surgery" provision by the NHS.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/provisionoffmasculinisinggenit#incoming-2070993

Doctors set out medical guidelines for trans men giving birth - Times
FannyCann · 28/07/2022 13:37

And this one seeking more information about the new provision NHS England is funding, which hasn't yet been replied to.
This should give a good idea of the number of (women) people undergoing "masculinising genital surgery" which presumably is performed after any hysterectomy etc.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/nhsserviceeforprovisionnof_mas#incoming-2073681

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 28/07/2022 23:56

Igneococcus · 27/07/2022 07:23

I assume there will be some transmen who get pregnant accidentally, not as a choice.

I saw one where a trans man had to stop birth control before he could start taking T and the trans woman he was in a relationship impregnated him despite promising it wasn't possible and then split.

I was just gutted it seemed so tragic for him to be so unaware of his body and the risks he was taking with it. Somehow it's still the same people holding the baby and the same people who can chose to opt out though right...

babyjellyfish · 29/07/2022 07:02

Somehow it's still the same people holding the baby and the same people who can chose to opt out though right...

Funny, that!

Metabigot · 29/07/2022 07:13

Igneococcus · 27/07/2022 07:23

I assume there will be some transmen who get pregnant accidentally, not as a choice.

Or if the non trans partner cannot go through a pregnancy . Presuming they are a bio woman.

I'd have happily swapped with my partner to have my second child if I'd had the option due to serious health problems.

Unfortunately As he's a man mother nature said no.
Yeah so it seems you can't actually change sex after all.

I'd have done it for my daughter and I if I could have.. then changed back again.

Luckily we made it through ( just,)

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