Doctors set out medical guidelines for trans men giving birth - Times

[Igneococcus]

Can't see this shared yet:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1471a020-0d2c-11ed-a4af-79eb4b98fc31?shareToken=6ca0e34c47283d9e0ec2cb0554eafa64

This is incorrect.

I agree

what absolute nonsense

To understand the full extent of policy capture in the NHS take a look at this FOI.
The Rainbow Badge scheme is funded by NHS England (£220k this financial year, £70k last fy) and administered by the LGBT Foundation.
40 NHS trusts are signed up this year, 10 in the pilot scheme last year.

Senior management need to demonstrate their rainbow credentials at interview.
Patient information needs to be gender neutral. There is much more that has been dug out by someone.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rainbowbadgeeaccreditation25

And I am VERY keen to see the response to this excellent FOI which is now overdue.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/definitionoffwomangenderrsex#incoming-2065542

I find the chest feeding thing so sinister. There’s a million words you could call it that don’t make it male centered.

Whats wrong with nursing ffs. Thats already a used word and actually the standard term in lots of countries.

Makes me think it’s not really about making it more inclusive. It seems to be about taking words away from women and making them male.

@fannycann, and all this money wasted on woke wording is making an the NHS not have an enough funding for essential treatments, or doctors and nurses. Can't help feeling the world has gone mad to accommodate what is less than 1 percent of population.

Why would a Transman want to give birth?

Surely they would not want to being a man in their eyes?!

It makes no sense.

"The paper does not mention inclusion of trans identifying males (transwomen) on women’s wards thankfully"

It does on the page 7 table.

"Gender diverse people should be allocated in-patient accommodation in line with their gender presentation, unless there is a significant reason (e.g. the individual care needs that cannot safely be provided in other settings). If there is a reason to depart from this, this should be discussed and agreed with the individual."

I share every one of your concerns and thoughts (maybe not those where the medical terminology is beyond me as a lay person!).
I would be very interested, if you'd be willing to share it, to see what the College says when (if?) they respond to you.

Oh, and I love your username 😄

And if it became official men could give birth then surely companies could hire all men and then use that to prove they dont discriminate on the basis of maternity. And where would that leave maternity leave? Could it be argued that as men can give birth and none of the men employed have taken maternity leave then clearly its not something that's needed.

Turkeys voting fir Xmas

I don't get the specific problem here. I absolutely don't agree with removing the word "women" from standard guidance/literature, but surely it makes sense to have separate guidance for this very small minority group?

As for all the "I just don't understand WHHYYYY" comments- people do all kinds of stuff I don't understand all the time. Individual decisions that don't affect anyone else are not really not an issue for society as a whole are they?

I found this interesting. I am sure I read that the The Scottish NHS has recently told GPs to prescribe 'bridging hormones' to patients who have not yet been seen at a gender identity clinic.

"Prescribing endocrine treatment with the intention of changing sex-specific characteristics may have profound social and psychological consequences. Clinicians must recognise and work within the limits of their competence. Prescribers who do not have specific expertise/experience in the prescribing and monitoring of endocrine treatment for gender dysphoria should work with clinical supervision from an experienced gender specialist (described by the GMC as having, “evidence of relevant training and at least two years' experience working in a specialised gender dysphoria practice such as a National Health Service Gender Identity Clinic”)."

Thank you @Justme56, that had completely slipped my notice! Admittedly reading that whole awful document felt mind melting in its thoughtlessness and lack of scientific rigour.

@Whatwouldscullydo I agree. Some may think that scenario is too dystopian but I think that we are already through the looking glass (eg assault of women in only recently mixed sex private spaces) and the posts on the long thread of “it will never happen.” The Venn diagram of trans rights activists and mens rights activists is not yet a perfect circle but it’s getting closer every week.

“Some patients identifying as women retain male sex organs”

When you replace the word some with the word most which more accurately reflects the situation , then the anxiety that vunerable women lying in a hospital ward feel becomes a lot easier to understand doesn’t it?

Can someone, anyone , explain why the feelings of one person who has made choices in their life are seen as more important than the feelings of other people who have not even been asked what their choices are?

You would assume that a hospital of all places was a bit more clued up on what bodily attributes constitute a persons sexual identity.

It does effect everyone else though.

Because indulging this for one person means that they are accepting that men and women are nothing more than a collection of undefined feelings inside someone's head. Medical care deals with sex bodies and should be based in facts/science. If we see that the nhs dont even know what sex is then how can anyone trust them with life and death decisions

Excellent point.

I do not understand being Transgender at all. It seems like extreme stereotypes to me on both sides (except apparently for men wanting a baby) I am a woman I like frills and lace, but wear minimal makeup and have no intention of taking on the emotional load in a relationship- a grown man ought to know how to feed himself for example. On the other hand I am not into manly stuff like cars etc. I look after my car but that is all.

I would never be unkind to a trans person as they are obviously going through what makes no sense to me.

Maybe I am Non Binary and haven't worked it out ( I thought sarcastically)

I just don’t understand why, if you firmly reject being a woman (which is fine, everyone has a choice), you would then want to have a baby which is not part of being a man which they say they identify with instead. Just hurts my brain.

Precisely; exactly what I said.

I makes no sense at all.

Individual decisions that don't affect anyone else are not really not an issue for society as a whole are they?

The effect of compliance with (submission to!) this ideology is to impose the that individual's personal choices upon everyone else, regardless of others' beliefs or needs, and regardless of the consequences to others.

and regardless of the consequences to that individual, too!

Why should trans-identified people get substandard care? Because that's what unclear language is in medical - substandard.

FFS
It makes no sense.

Sorry Mumsnet you need an edit button

Yes I agree. I very much reject the move to referring to all mothers as "birthing parents" etc. This very clearly has a huge impact on society as a whole.

But having specific guidance for a specific group of people makes sense to me. If they want to call their own mammary glands their "chest" then that really makes no odds with me.

Gives the hospital an out too.

1 man recorded as a man dying in childbirth would be negligible in stats. If it was 100 percent of transmen at that time or the death that would trigger a review if included with women it could be dismissed...

More harm for women and transmen

I'm sure I read somewhere that trans identifying females who are taking testosterone are at increased risk of certain cancers. Does anyone know anything about this or did I imagine it?

Is there a consensus in the comments under the Times article?