Doctors set out medical guidelines for trans men giving birth - Times

[Igneococcus]

Can't see this shared yet:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1471a020-0d2c-11ed-a4af-79eb4b98fc31?shareToken=6ca0e34c47283d9e0ec2cb0554eafa64

But having specific guidance for a specific group of people makes sense to me. If they want to call their own mammary glands their "chest" then that really makes no odds with me.

If that was what was happening, then these pages would be as quiet as the Feminism: Chat board. I doubt ever the most ardently gender critical feminist would take issue with it.

Unfortunately all these 'guidelines' and 'inclusivity' policies do not recommend tailoring language to the individual. They recommend imposing de-sexed language across the board - at least where women are concerned. It's a complete reversal of patient-centred medicine.

I wonder if a transman got breast cancer (if they had some remaining breast tissue) if we would have to call it chest cancer? A small number of men get breast cancer and the name isn’t changed. So what’s so upsetting about breastfeeding as a term?

Ive not read the guidance, but does it include guidance on the effects of testosterone on the developing foetus or breastfeeding? Surely that would be a pretty important thing to look at? (Guidance from literature is to avoid pregnancy and breastfeeding if you are taking testosterone)

@IcakethereforeIam

I do know of a couple of cases. Certain primary liver cancers are more common in men due to testosterone and the very first thing the oncologist did was order the (female) patient to discontinue testosterone.

I have no idea if these cases are reported for long term statistical monitoring though. I suspect not.

@JellySaurus is right on this.

Could you imagine a scenario where a very small minority of people (with a questionable ideology), who spoke a different language, wanted clinical guidance re-written, and actually whole clinical services changed, to not only accommodate their needs (preferences?), but to centre them?

In and any healthcare context apart from women’s health, they wouldn’t they just be told a ‘polite no in three paragraphs’, if that?

As for electing to have a Caesarian to ‘support dissociation from the baby/birth process’, this is wrong on so many levels that I’m struggling to begin.

And they can FOTTFSOF with their ‘cis’ nonsense as well.

I can never understand how trans men have dysphoria over words like “breast” and so it needs to be “chest feeding” but magically suffer no dysphoria from getting pregnant, gestating a foetus, giving birth and breastfeeding all while being off their hormones which are supposedly life saving medication. If men can give birth they can surely breast feed.

Yes there's alot of picking and choosing alongside chastising people for not keeping up with whatever menat to be offensive that day.

Another reason to not indulge this..solve one problem and another is created because the whole thing is steeped in victim mentality. No ones actually interested in solving all the " problems" which is clear through the outrageous and dangerous suggestions which i dont think anyone actually expects anyone to go " sure ok yes we will do that " and every time theres a yes something even more ridiculous becomes the next target. All for people who will never actually be happy because the identity is being a victim..

Changing the established medical language is a really disproportionate response to a tiny problem and it brings health risks to the wider population. Unclear language is especially likely to be detrimental to those for whom their first language is not English, people with learning disabilities and other disadvantaged groups of people.

It is inescapable that biologically female attributes such as having a functional uterus, vagina, breasts etc, enable pregnancy, childbirth and nursing. Changing the language might slightly ease the dysphoria of the (tiny minority of) trans men giving birth, but it won’t address the deeper dysphoria of doing such an inherently female thing as carrying and birthing a baby, then feeding it your milk made by your own mammary glands.

The NHS should fund counselllng for the tiny minority of trans men who want to give birth and are considering to nurse their babies. And leave the language that’s widely understood by the wider population alone.

Is it, at least partly, about control. Your (the TM) body is their business, they do what they want with it. But forcing HCP and wider society to dance to their tune. Particularly, if they feel they've previously been ignored and marginalised.

By right, linked health care problems should be reported to the pharmaceutical company as potential adverse side effects to taking the medication, except for the little problem of being used off lable.

But is there proof this is linked?

I imaging numbers (so far) are very small and if no one is monitoring for statistical analysis I doubt a link can be proven.

In Ireland men need to be included in maternity legislation as legislation allows anybody over 16 to get a GRC, as you can guess rather than add to the maternity legislation the current government are removing the words woman.

The danger point is not direct discrimination around leave but indirect discrimination where the senior managment are promoting more young males and only older women.

There is also a ideolgical push to have "shared" maternity leave rather than legislating for personal leave to the partner

There are many people born into the world who lose their mum early or later in their lives. People suffer when they lose their mum. The relationship is foundational to a feeling of security and of being nurtured. When we have difficult relationships with our mothers this often plays out over the course of our lives in various ways. This seems to me to be the height of selfishness and entitlement to bring a baby into the world while rejecting what the baby needs from the get go. A baby needs its mum. Remembering the visits from the health visitors when I had my own, the writing in the red book to ensure you were "mothering properly", the looking out for PND. How society has changed in such a short space of time. This really highlights to me that child welfare, safeguarding, is no longer the priority. We are going to have generations of messed up kids. Mothers matter.

Completely agree joody

That's what's missing I think. We should be able to recognise that the connection cannot ever be created in the same way and that by acknowledging that it doesn't mean we dont think that a baby can thrive with 2 dad's or be aware that Sometimes its best fir the baby to not be with the biological mother , and That dads can be amazing dads . Now it's just automatically twisted to make it sound as if people are against adoption or same sex couples having a baby. But that's not the case. There are many lousy mothers. Amd many amazing gay dad's. But we should never forget that there will still be issues surrounding babies when they don't know where they came.from and/or dont have a mother.

@Whatwouldscullydo yes I agree with all that you said. Thanks for adding in and clarifying - it does need it. There are many wonderful parents who are not women/mothers. Some mothers struggle. But for the majority the foundational relationship of our lives is with our mum. Many who don't have that seek the maternal relationship elsewhere.

There's no denying we have kind of backed ourselves into an impossible corner. We have perhaps been more obsessed with being right and " fair" than doing the right thing. You cant argue that its its no big deal for strangers to have to validate identities by rolling out policies forcing staff to do just that, and have it listed as a hate crime if you don't , then turn round and say that actually the baby will be harmed if you deny you are actually mother and make them call you dad.

One also would have hoped , now that the attempt to list the biological.mother as the father on the birth certificate was not sucessful that it would have given hospitals an out so to speak. That they were free to draw the line now because despite efforts with pronouns amd rainbow laces ita still all gonna end when it gets to the registry office. But it would seem that no ones willing to do that.

Since when was giving people what they demand if they shout at you, regardless whether their demands are harmful to them or to others, being 'fair'?

TBH I don't think it's about being fair, as much as it is about being seen to be fair. The forced teaming of attaching T+++ to LGB allowed the propagandists to imply that not submitting to this new ideology was equivalent to homophobia. You wouldn't want to be seen as homophonic, would you?

Well its " fair " on the childish and selfish level that most of the people look.at it now ( what with debate/discussion now viewed as phobic 🙄) .

If crackheads Helen and Joe can have a baby then why can't Hard working Harold and Ian have one..and if Harold and Ian have a baby without a mother why can't Alex have a baby and tell the baby they are the father etc etc

If more in depth thought was actually given , and cries of homophobia and transphobia were seen for what they are on these cases, which is emotional blackmail and attempts to shut you down then none of this would ever have gotten this far.

Men cannot give birth, it is the ultimate feminine act - surprising given the lack of glitter involved. But surely any biological woman, identifying as a man, and who want to fulfill this role would be best served by being supported to reconcile with their biological selves in order to do so. Perpetuating a falsehood will surely only add to trauma.

As an aside, I simply cannot get my head around any parent denying their child a mother - to willingly birth and raise a child but deny them this seems unbelievably cruel.

A few quite worrying things in there.

The royal college, which was founded in 1929, is responsible for postgraduate training of gynaecologists in Britain and sets clinical standards for childbirth and illnesses affecting female reproductive organs. The new draft guideline, which is subject to a six-week consultation, is the college’s first advice to doctors on care for trans people. It says they should use a patient’s chosen pronouns, adding: “Deliberate misuse of language associated with the sex assigned at birth (misgendering), may cause profound offence.”

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists knows better than just about everyone else that sex is not assigned at birth. Surely there are better ways to recommend that healthcare practitioners use transgender patients' gender identities without using this anti-scientific language? If they pretend this stuff isn't nonsense, members of the public who don't have the medical knowledge they do will believe it.

The document also says that trans women should be put on female wards despite controversy over the issue as some patients self-identifying as women retain male sex organs.

Where to even start? I don't see why RCOG needs to concern itself with healthcare for trans women, given that trans women are male and will therefore never need either an obstetrician or a gynaecologist. This is a specialism which focuses exclusively on female patients. And yet they are prioritising the feelings of male patients over the feelings, safety and dignity of their own, female patients, by recommending that trans women be put on female only wards, regardless of how the female patients feel about that.

The royal college urges staff to ask men whether they want to “chestfeed” their baby, adding: “For trans men who choose to chestfeed, offer chestfeeding support in the same manner as for cis women [women whose gender identity matches their sex].”

Once again, we see an organisation emphasising the importance of using transgender people's preferred language to refer to them, and then calling the rest of us "cis" with impunity. We are apparently the only people who don't get to say how we should be referred to, and have our preferences respected.

It says transgender people should be offered advice about fertility preservation before having gender hormone therapy. For example transgender women, who were born with male organs, should be offered the chance to freeze their sperm. It also says hysterectomies, when the womb is surgically removed, should be offered to transgender men.

So, what they're saying is that trans women should be offered fertility preservation, but trans men should be offered sterilisation.

Does nobody else find that worrying?

So trans women, most of whom do not have any bottom surgery and in whom the effects of testosterone suppression are reversible if the hormones are stopped, are offered sperm freezing in case they would like to father children later. But trans men are encouraged to have hysterectomies which will render them permanently infertile. Too bad if they regret their decision at a later date, either because they decide they want children after all or because the removal of their female internal sex organs has put them into immediate menopause and wreaked devastating damage on their bodies.

NHS Digital said it followed standards and guidelines set out in the NHS service manual. It says those writing for the NHS website should “only mention sex, gender or sexuality if they’re relevant, for example, to signpost people and help them get the health information and access to treatment they need”.

And yet they are recommending desexing language even in circumstances where sex is highly relevant, and referring to gender identity instead when it is far from clear how this is relevant to anything at all.

I agree.

Abortion care is one thing, but pregnancy?

Freddy McConnell's pregnancies weren't accidental. He had artificial insemination. After obtaining a GRC on the basis that he intended to live the rest of his life as a man.

What a mess and how distressing to see august medical bodies use incorrect terms like assigned at birth and cis.

Breastfeeding has nothing to do with obstetricians and gynaecologists, they have nothing to do with the baby, as it's the terrain of the midwife. No doubt the Royal College of Midwives are obediently nodding along, as ever.

@JellySaurus
With respect, Cutting your breasts off and taking male hormones so that you can grow a beard are not ‘rejecting stereotypes of féminité , they are extreme cosmetic medical processes which impact on the care and possibly welfare (hormonal damage?) of the infant.

Excellent post, babyjellyfish. It is remarkable to see a medical body, which should be prioritising scientific evidence, so ideologically captured that it is willing to spout absolute nonsense. It's as if the Royal Astronomical Society published a document about the importance of star signs.

That's one extreme of transgender expression. At the other end are people who change absolutely nothing about themselves or their appearance, but maitain that they are a different sex/gender/unicorn.

Having severe gender or body dysphoria is not a prerequisite for being trans.

And FM , despite their apparent research and supposed intelligence, did not understand that radical mastectomies would severely reduce any chance of breastfeeding, and was also unaware ( even on their second pregnancy) that the effects of testosterone use in a female pregnant body severely reduces the size of the placenta thus putting the baby’s growth and development at risk.

I think in twenty or less years time there will be a tranche of trans people weeping and wailing at the permanent damage they have done to their bodies through poorly understood hormone treatment and surgery, devastated at the crippling health issues they are facing , and looking for someone to blame. And reports like this that make the issue about the language and being kind rather than being upfront ,honest and loud about long term impacts will be being produced in evidence of Health authorities failure with regard to trans peoples health needs.

@Babyjellyfish, your earlier post going through points raised in the RCGO report is excellent, I hope you will be sending them a copy, not that they don’t already know the points you raise, but it might jog someone’s conscience if they realise that other people can see right through their wispy woke curtains.