LOJ and monkeypox. Knows what a man is

[123Callie]

So LOJ has finally decided that men who have sex with men ARE more at risk of contracting monkeypox after all. And he wants them to know this so that they can all go and get vaccinated. Strangely, he is not using inclusive language at all. He only mentions men. There are transwomen at risk in exactly the same way but no mention of the women who sleep with men who sleep with men. Now that men are affected he is well aware that clear language is necessary for health campaigns.

Also, on another note, he doesn’t want men to stop having sex with multiple strangers. That’s fine despite the known risks. Can’t expect a man to take responsibility for his own health over servicing his raging libido.

Without ever mentioning the single most effective thing Governments could do - which is to roll out the smallpox vaccine - and the single most effective thing gay men can do, which is to get the smallpox vaccine.

This of course is typical - pursue public health tactics that we know don’t work while ignoring things that we know do work.

Isn't part of the problem that there isn't enough smallpox vaccine as stocks have only been kept to deal with bio-terrorism.

Also it has an 85% effectiveness rate but is not advised for the immune suppressed/compromised.

Surely the most effective thing is to try and roll out a vaccine and for men to lay off highly risky behaviours for a while whilst the vaccine is rolled out?

Why is it so unthinkable that a bloke might have to go without shagging multiple strangers for a few weeks/months? That's not intrinsic to being a gay man is it? So why would it cause stigma around being gay?

No.

You can do the ‘omg why would it cause stigma’ all you like.But we don’t need to speculate - we know how the approach advocated here plays out and we know the stigma it creates.

We’ve been through this before so rather than randomers speculating on the Internet we can actually look at history and look at which approaches worked and didn’t work with HIV, and which approaches increased stigma and homophobia.

I know it’s off topic, but I find the idea of a straight woman expecting to have sex with gay men really quite upsetting

in the 90s when people of my vintage were coming out, it was never a consequence free thing to do. In 90s provincial Essex you thought twice before concluding you were gay, believe me. No social cachet was gained

the idea of straight people appropriating that……it’s both frustrating and upsetting

Godess wept!

Now you are essentially arguing our point for us, but badly and without the reflection and realisation that should come with it.

The whole point of this thread is pointing out LOJs hypocrisy and the contradiction of his use of ideological language when it suits him and not otherwise.

This is the word knot YOU have created by trying to pretend up is down, left is right and men are women. We are just pointing out the logical inconsistencies of the new world order you are trying ( badly) to create.

Sex is the risk factor for higher risk of suicide, doing worse at school and (if you are sleeping with other men promiscuously), the reason you are at higher risk of monkey pox.

Unless you have a dsd, male sex is directly correlated to a penis (that's true in at least 99.992% of cases)

It is a mathematically accurate proxy, directly related and can be used as an effective and accurate substitute.

It shouldn't be of course, because that is reducing people to their genitals. WHICH IS OUR POINT.

The irony and inherrrent irrationality that is being pointed out and the reason for the thread.

It is mirror being held up to your tactics.

We don't actually think this advice should be targeted at penis havers.

Gay men works fine.

Sorry if you were confused.

Please return the favour and stop trying to obliterate the language of womanhood

.

Erm. Yes.

This is a genuine question, I’m really not trying to be snarky, but what did gay men who go to saunas etc do during the lockdowns? In the initial lockdown everywhere was shut, wasn’t it? Did they immediately move to riskier setups?

I don't know a single gay man who would touch a "transman" with a barge pole.

We are all 'randomers on the internet' here, Tea. Including you.

No comment from @TeaKlaxon on the sheer effrontery of straight women expecting men who will have experienced real and serious consequences for being out about their sexual attraction to other men to be open to the idea of sex with them?

Sure. Which is why we don't need to guess at whether the approach advocated by LGBA would have increased stigma. We can just look at history, where the approach of trying to reduce gay sex through demonisation or criminalisation not only failed in public health terms, but also in terms of the wider wellbeing of those whose sex lives were demonised.

All those 'but surely it wouldn't increase stigma' just need to know a bit of history.

Look, I know folk on here keep on with this idea that trans men are straight women (they're not) and the idea that no trans men have sexual relationships with gay men.

But you are just wrong.

There are cis gay men in relationships with trans men right now. There are trans men who are on Grindr and hooking up with cis gay men. There are trans men cruising. There are trans men married to cis gay men.

I know that's really inconvenient for you. But it is reality.

Look, I know folk on here keep on with this idea that trans men are straight women (they're not) and the idea that no trans men have sexual relationships with gay men.

This is what it means when straight people hijack gay rights as a male having sex with a female is straight sex.

Yes

do you really think a boy in 90’s Essex having a relationship with a girl would have experienced homophobia? Even if she was flat chested and wearing a plaid shirt?

of course not

someone’s presentation does not change their sex, and straight people pretending to be gay so they can feel edgy is downright offensive

So no source then, just some googling after I asked for one.

Lol - poster who responded to a claim with a ‘quick google’ complains that Google not a good enough source when it contradicts her.

Mumsnetters gonna mumsnet I guess.

You guys are really through the looking glass now.

Are you really claiming that a guy in a relationship with a trans man wouldn’t face any prejudice or hostility? FFS you guys are deluded.

Firstly, a trans man is not a girl. Secondly even if you think he is, most people do not perceive trans men as girls (or women) since most people have no way of knowing that most trans men are trans unless it’s disclosed.

So yes - the guy in Essex in the 90s dating a trans guy would have copped the same flak for being gay.

Mumsnetters gonna mumsnet I guess

what does this mean?

also, I think you may be a mumsnetter

you’re here after all

Ok, I will grant you that aside from generally being much more lightly built than men, women who have taken testosterone are often reasonably male looking at first glance

and you make a valid point that such a gender non conforming woman would experience a great deal of hostility that would likely be rooted in homophobia

i expect there are men who are happy to have relationships both with other men and with trans men

what is your word for men who only want to have sex with other men but not trans men? How do they (and trans men) avoid finding themselves in a very uncomfortable situation of being faced with a hook up with someone they simply would never consider as a sexual partner?

Umm the same way any of us avoid having sex with someone we don’t want to - we look at the person in front of us, we discuss what we’re up for and what we’re not and we make a decision.

I know there are many for whom trans issues occupy an inordinate amount of time. But I promise you most gay men aren’t out there thinking ‘omg what do I do if a trans guy comes on to me’.

If I arranged a hook up through tindr and a woman turned up it would be pretty fucking awkward

i’m not going to want to have sex with a woman regardless of what cosmetic surgery she has had or what drugs she’s taken. It’s just not the way I’m wired

and if she’s not honest with me about her sex and I’m somehow taken in, that would be sexual assault. A woman was sent to prison this week for precisely this

I would imagine the situation is the same for men who fancy men (we could call them homosexuals, what do you think?)

No, because trans men are NO THREAT to men. However trans women ARE a threat to lesbians. [Because they are males].

Honestly it's like you are just deliberately homophobic - some people are gay and like same sex relationships - you need to get over it.