Judith Butler in The New Statesman

[ScreamingMeMe]

twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1550765835144364040?t=q1JBabwoM_zR2lp91Fml0A&s=19

What does the overturning of Roe vs Wade mean for progress? And where does feminism go next?

@paperdispatch spoke with the philosopher and gender theorist, Judith Butler, about Roe vs Wade, trans rights, and the war on education.

t.co/sQXh7virgB

🔴On the reaction to Roe vs Wade: "I don’t agree with analysts who lay the blame for the repeal on feminists or trans people or the deceased Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg."

"That way of turning against ourselves is too easy and wrong-headed and it keeps us from doing what is most necessary – analysing and defeating the hard right."

"When some feminists now make claims like, “the patriarchal oppression of women is heavily rooted in our reproductive systems”, it can sound like those reproductive systems are the cause of the oppression. That is muddled thinking, wrong, and does not advance feminist aims."

🔴Is the ruling a backlash to progress?

"I think we are witnessing something more serious and dangerous than a backlash. This is a “restoration project” that has as its final aim the reconstruction of an order that some feel has been dismantled by progressive legislation." t.co/j9Pv5lTsqj

"Under this “restoration project”, not only is patriarchy to be restored, protected against its dismantling, but white supremacy, and exclusively heterosexual marriage."

"White supremacists and Maga Republicans are also waging a war against educational institutions from K-12 [primary and secondary school] through higher education, accusing leftists of inculcating ideology."

"We have to understand the attack on movements for racial justice, abortion rights, healthcare justice and legal protections for migrants, support for the gun lobby and the arms industry, as linked with the repeal of Roe." t.co/e9h2uc1qg7

🔴Where do you see hope when you think about what’s next?

"We have to fight for abortion rights, but it is one of many rights that belong to reproductive justice, and that reproductive justice is part of the complex and dynamic struggle for justice."

"Once we realise that, then we are on our way toward imagining a transformative force that would equal and overcome those who promote hatred and inequality."

"We are gathered as targets by a well-coordinated Right, so perhaps we should decide how we want to gather, and for what aim."

Read the full interview here:

t.co/sQXh7virgB

actually @LK1972 we taught 8chan all they know. We are 12chan. Fear us. I do feel a bit sorry for @antifascist . How lonely and sad must your life be that all you can think of to do is go on a site where women are having discussions and throw insults instead of contributing in an intelligent way.

yes, I mean the curtailment of women's rights is demonstrably only vigorously pursued in some states. Maybe the US is better thought of as two countries, one christian fundamentalist country, and one more closely aligned with western liberal values?

not sure where that gets the women who live in Fundy USA though

Fair enough, Bernard.

I have to say, I'm always hoping you'll intervene at an inopportune moment so i can say 'Not now, Bernard'.

Now is not that time, though.

Same UK police that did nothing at all about those girls raped in Telford or Rochdale for decades? Figures.

Careful mirax or people will accuse you of being a fascist.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a woman in possession of an opinion must be in want of a system of government marked by centralization of authority, Eresh.

I agree with you nepeta, that some of this terrible situation is due to notably higher religiosity in US, hence religious institutions having a bigger influence on policy.

But how is that different to Ireland, where the abortion rights were won by a popular consensus?

My thoughts, unformed and under-informed though they are, is that RvW decision, is actually at fault.

The decision did not attach any conditions to the abortion, unlike the laws in Europe that enjoy widespread public support. Partial-birth abortions without medical indications, and abortion to the full term, do not exist in Europe, and were utilized by the Right in gathering public support for the bans that are now taking place in some states.

And another reason, as ever, is the partisan nature of US politics and increased polarization, partially due to the Left appearing unhinged on race and gender.

Whatever the reasons though, I genuinely think US women are not going to get the abortion rights any time soon, as their defenders on the Left are out of their mind, and the public will not buy the whole package.

Perhaps the pro-abortion rights movement could rise above the party politics and separate the issue from the Democratic Party to win public support, but I see no signs of that taking place, which is incredibly sad.

PARKLIFE!

The decision did not attach any conditions to the abortion, unlike the laws in Europe that enjoy widespread public support. Partial-birth abortions without medical indications, and abortion to the full term, do not exist in Europe, and were utilized by the Right in gathering public support for the bans that are now taking place in some states

I think that's right and I also think some on the Left/ some feminists didn't help their cause by the unqualified "as early as possible, as late as necessary" mantra without any definition of what "necessary" meant- beyond "no longer want to be pregnant".

It's all very well saying , "well women don't change their mind just on a whim" when that was what you're arguing for.

The way Roe v Wade was justified (based on privacy) was always problematic, but I was told that it was because there were no better legal devices for the decision to apply over the whole country. I believe the right to contraception in the US is also based on the concept of privacy.

In my feminist view Roe should have been based on equal rights by sex, because if women can't control their own reproductive systems then women and men can't have equal opportunities in life.

And, sadly, I agree that things won't get better for women in the red states any time soon. I also agree that the pro-choice movement is cutting off its own feet before going on marches for those rights which were previously called women's rights but which now seem to affect all 'people' equally except that they affect the alphabets so much more and so we should center them.

The stern sermons on what to believe and how to behave aimed at the group formerly-known-as-women-and-girls on various repro rights sites are a new development and shockingly rude and condescending.

@nepeta 'I was told that it was because there were no better legal devices for the decision to apply over the whole country.' That is likely correct, but the abortion rights movement was gathering pace in US at that point, with some states introducing laws on to the books (luckily, as otherwise there would not be any legal abortion in any US state now).

The decision to impose these rights, rather than work on them state by state, made those rights weak, always controversial, never secure, and used as political football by both sides.

yes, I have to say I agree with this. 'as early as possible, as late as necessary' is an ideological position, and quite hard to justify. I think it harms the pro choice position

The decision to impose these rights, rather than work on them state by state, made those rights weak, always controversial, never secure, and used as political football by both sides

so to reestablish abortion rights, campaigners will need to work state by state, as if they were working through the countries of Europe?

Yes, exactly, and this will be a very slow process, possibly taking anywhere up to a century (and of course based on the premise that there will be future movements which we used to call for women's rights).

Yes, I think so. I don't necessarily agree with @nepeta that it will take quite so long though.

I would think there are lessons to be learned from Ireland for US, as the religious comparators are not dissimilar.

First, though, they really need to separate the abortion rights arguments from the rest of the Left-wing ideologies, as it's really not helping.

I wish there was anything I could do, but meanwhile it's fun to laugh at JB ramblings, whatever the new puritans in this thread tell us.

First, though, they really need to separate the abortion rights arguments from the rest of the Left-wing ideologies, as it's really not helping.

Yes. If you want buy-in from the moderate Republican voters who did support abortion rights on grounds of civil rights and autonomy of the individual, you need an old-fashioned feminist approach to women’s rights — you can’t be going about with the “birthing bodies” / “pregnant persons” nonsense. Who you need support from are the moderate voters, including well-off middle class American men and women who don’t like the idea of anyone, including fundamentalist churches, being able to tell their daughters what to do with their bodies.

You might not like that if you’re a blue-haired ideological gender enthusiast, but it’s essential to get abortion rights back in the frame. And the Democrats are, sadly, currently in thrall to this nonsense instead of building a public consensus based on material reality and women’s rights. The current American left will just let this one go by because men’s rights are more important to them.

Agree with all of this.

It is gutting to watch this unfolding shit-show from across the pond though, unable to do anything at all.

when the current tax on women passes, and I no longer have to fund court cases to establish the bleeding obvious, I'm hoping to be able to send some small financial support to the cause of abortion rights in the US.

I'm assuming the need will be two fold - on the ground support to enable women to access abortions, and campaign funding. it's good to talk about it to try to get a picture of what's likely to be most effective, and therefore the best place to donate

I can't remember exactly which states but there are Republican states which have longer time limits, even post R v W, than several European countries.

This is very clear analysis of the current position in each state.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2022/jun/28/tracking-where-abortion-laws-stand-in-every-state

I am a feminist who has a sense of humour & I also know how ridiculous & pretentious Butler is.

Oh and it might be worth having taking a look at the article linked to that original one mentioned. It’s by Butler‘s response to JKR.

Is it to do with high heels and make-up and a tinkling laugh and a cute little head tilt? If not, I don't know. It's a mystery.

I hope I'm too pessimistic about the time frame, too. Still, the US political situation is so much more polarised than the UK one, and the alt right and the alt left are both awful (the alt right is much more awful but the alt left is also misogynistic in its woke clothing), yet they are important as the bases of voters in a two-party system.

I have found no obvious way to break that pattern.

She's a woman who pretends not to be a woman because she thinks a woman is someone who conforms to feminine stereotypes and she's too cool for that.

I'm not sure I would describe her thinking as "forward", and I don't think she has much to teach others about feminism.

For all the Butler supporters, I'd like to point out that Butler's brand of postmodernism feminism does NOTHING to dismantle white male dominance, and NOTHING to actually combat the roll-back of abortion rights we see in the USA. If you read 'Gender Trouble', she is adamant that the project of feminism is not, and cannot be, liberation of women from male oppression because the very concept of 'woman' is a power structure which is just as illegitimate as male power. So what is feminism, according to Butler? Well, it then becomes a matter of constantly defining, debating and forever 'deferring' the meaning of the term 'woman' and then 'subverting' and 'playing with' that concept. In short, feminism becomes nothing more than a language game. Butler is adamant that there cannot be real political change, we can't actually DO anything to overthrow patriarchy so the best we can do is 'queer things up' a bit and poke our tongues out at those in power while skirting around the edges (curiously, if you read her other works she does not advise this strategy for black people or Palestinians. It seems they get to be straightforwardly liberated). So it is a complete red herring to say 'if you don't support Butler you must support right wing white christian men.' I don't support either, and in fact think they are mutually supporting. Butler's lack of teeth and claws, her political and academic vacuity, has enabled the right wing backlash against feminism to succeed beyond their wildest dreams.