I am embracing virtue signalling pronouns in emails

[MsFogi]

I have realised I have made too many assumptions about gender over the years. I had always assumed that Paul (name changed of course) in my company was a man simply on the basis of his appearance (well over 6 foot, well built, big beard, low voice that only someone with an Adam's apple and whose balls have dropped could have). Imagine my relief to find that I have not been misgendering him for over a decade because he has helpfully added his pronouns to his email auto signature - they are he/him/his. There is no company diktat to add pronouns on emails so clearly this is important to Paul or maybe he has been misgendered recently.

So, I thought I would ensure that Paul was not offended on a Teams meeting this afternoon and kicked off the meeting by asking everyone to note that Paul's pronouns are he/him/his and that given that he has stated these that everyone please be sensitive to ensuring that they use them. No one said anything so I think they all took it on board, no one misgendered Paul and I like to think that his move to include his pronouns at work has been embraced in my meeting. Maybe as a result others that attended the meeting will add theirs to their auto signatures too.

The only way he would look silly is if this whole pronoun thing was nonsense and everybody knew it.

I think this is why the pp on this thread think he might be embarrassed.

I expect there's a word for this in German - someone looking silly because another person has treated their silly behaviour absolutely seriously.

If there isn't @ErrolTheDragon , there should be.

Umm, how do pronouns help you know 'who to expect'?

If, as we are told, they reflect the gender identity of an individual and not their sex, then they are no help in expecting anything.

Alex with female pronouns could be a woman. Alex with female pronouns could also be a man, presenting, or not, as a woman. Alex with male pronouns could be a man. Alex with male pronouns could also be a woman, presenting, or not, as a man.

So no help at all in 'who to expect'.

What am I missing here?

The phrase I’m applying is hoist by his own petard. He wanted people to know his pronouns. OP helped him in that. That was being kind no? Is that not what we’re supposed to do? Or does it not count if we don’t believe?

You do potentially need to know whether to refer to them as ‘he’, ‘she’ or ‘they’

I’d say it’s likely the number of cis women who include their pronouns in their email signature is much larger than the number of trans women (and specifically, those who include their pronouns in their email signature), so it was quite a good indicator that it was likely to be a cis woman, if not a guarantee.

ni, we need to know their sex. Why should I care if paul is a gender fluid agender demiboi or a cat gender on Tuesdays? None of my business is it

@Conflictedunicorn are you going to come back to this?

depending on the situation, you don’t need to know either their sex or their gender. You just need to know how to refer to them - like checking how to pronounce their name, or asking if they prefer ‘William’ or ‘will’

So OP was right to tell everyone Paul’s pronouns then? Otherwise how would they have known he was identifying as male that day? She did a very kind act. What if someone had referred to him as she? It could happen.

I’d say it’s likely the number of cis women who include their pronouns in their email signature is much larger than the number of trans women (and specifically, those who include their pronouns in their email signature), so it was quite a good indicator that it was likely to be a cis woman, if not a guarantee.

Ummm....

And if the pronouns are they or zie, what's your expectation?

Please do not use cis. It is offensive, demeaning and a reportable offence on these boards.

I thought we were talking about a specific situation where a pp said she felt better about meeting someone having seen they had ‘she/her’ pronouns?

I checked the guidelines, the use of cis is not forbidden, though it can be reportable if used in a specifically offensive or hostile way (like if I referred to someone here as being cis, knowing they find it offensive).

The one time in my life it mattered whether the person with the unisex name I was arranging to meet was male or female, I just asked them. Because it was an entirely reasonable question in the context.

It's sad that there are social contexts where sex matters because of how some male people behave to female people and I hope over time that goes away. However, as long as those risky situations exist, asking someone their sex is a reasonable question in those contexts.

It scares me that TRAs want to make it an unreasonable question in any context while doing sweet FA to take away the risks that make it necessary.

Do you, do you really?

A - is anyone going to call Paul anything other than he?

B - if anyone called Paul anything other than he, what happens?

I find it offensive. Please do not use it. I will count any further uses as hostile behaviour.

Please do not use cis. It is offensive, demeaning and a reportable offence on these boards.

No, you can use it just not apply it to people who aren't Cis. Which is most posters on this board. In this case she's right - she pronouns in a signature generally do indicate a woman who 'identifies' as 'Cis'. Although of course another likely group is women who are not Cis who've been coerced into adding pronouns against their wishes.

I thought we were talking about a specific situation where a pp said she felt better about meeting someone having seen they had ‘she/her’ pronouns?

why though?

If I had a one to one meeting booked with someone whose pronouns on their email were she/her, and said colleague turned up with a beard, 6 feet tall and sounding like Barry White, why would knowing their pronouns in advance have any bearing on how you feel about meeting them?

If I had a one to one meeting booked with someone whose pronouns on their email were she/her, and said colleague turned up with a beard, 6 feet tall and sounding like Barry White, why would knowing their pronouns in advance have any bearing on how you feel about meeting them?

exactly. She/her now means it could be male or female. Words now actually mean nothing thanks to the lovely Gender ideologists.

You missed out about 600 other pronouns there.
isnt there a word for that?

I thought you weren’t in favour of policing speech? I find many things said on these threads offensive (eg references to ‘trans identifying males’) but I don’t report it or tell people off for using it, because it is not in breach of the rules. However, I consider myself a cis gender woman, and I know many other women who also consider themselves cis, and there is nothing hostile about saying that.

It wasn’t my example so I’m afraid I can’t answer that. The pp didn’t go into details but said it was a non-work situation and that it made a difference to them. I was just responding to the suggestion that if you receive an email from someone stating their pronouns are she/her it doesn’t tell you anything about the sex or physical presentation of the person. I was saying that in reality it gives you a probabilisitic indication.

If the words CIS is going to be routinely used, then so will the term TIM (trans identified male.)

That was the deal at the time.