I am embracing virtue signalling pronouns in emails

[MsFogi]

I have realised I have made too many assumptions about gender over the years. I had always assumed that Paul (name changed of course) in my company was a man simply on the basis of his appearance (well over 6 foot, well built, big beard, low voice that only someone with an Adam's apple and whose balls have dropped could have). Imagine my relief to find that I have not been misgendering him for over a decade because he has helpfully added his pronouns to his email auto signature - they are he/him/his. There is no company diktat to add pronouns on emails so clearly this is important to Paul or maybe he has been misgendered recently.

So, I thought I would ensure that Paul was not offended on a Teams meeting this afternoon and kicked off the meeting by asking everyone to note that Paul's pronouns are he/him/his and that given that he has stated these that everyone please be sensitive to ensuring that they use them. No one said anything so I think they all took it on board, no one misgendered Paul and I like to think that his move to include his pronouns at work has been embraced in my meeting. Maybe as a result others that attended the meeting will add theirs to their auto signatures too.

Thanks for the clarification OP, it had crossed my mind to wonder if Paul had put in his pronouns because he was tired of being referred to as 'that arsehole'. I feel reassured.

This!

That's *amig@MsFogi

WTF happened there? Tried to spell amigos/amigas with the gender neutral Spanish spelling using the internet "at" symbol instead of the sexed "o" or "a" spellings and was going to (jokingly, obv, I hope!) call Pearl a bigot for saying "amigos". MN doesn't like the "at" symbol it appears... It doesn't like blockquote either, which is annoying, too.

So can you point to anywhere else that you have made as many reprimands to TRAs for supposed breaches of online etiquette as you have on this single thread, @Kanaloa ?

Not explicitly - at least none of the "OP is obviously a bigot" type posters, so far as I can see.

D'oh - once again, I've worked my way through the thread at a later time than most posting here, only to find my variously inane comments all bunched together. I'm too used to discussion boards that link posts and replies together - apologies!

Ah, my Spanish is vanishingly shite, apols for mis-amigoing anyone. And yes, formatting on here is gone all to pot.

apols for mis-amigoing anyone.
Better mis-amigos than (uh oh) cis-amigas. The less said about the potential weirdness of amigx the better (misses point of thread, but 👏to the original post)

@TheBiologyStupid

Even on this very board I’m often on threads talking about the trans movements and my opinions on it. Obviously TRA don’t often post here and I’m not a member of forums where they would frequent so I don’t often post directly to them. However I’m a regular in this board and often post on threads on here about the trans movement.

I’m not going to continue trying to defend it though - I think the poster who mentioned this being seen as a small victory’ was right, and people are determined to defend their point of view to the point of seeing anyone who disagrees with one part of it as the enemy/someone to fight their point to. Unfortunately you’re not capable of seeing what I’m saying so there’s no chance of a sensible conversation.

Thank fuck we still have humour to see us through these weird times. And I don't mean piling in on an individual which has not happened here. I mean being able to laugh and yes mock the absurdity of where this ideology has led to. Thank fuck the direction is turning and we in the UK didn't have laws imposed on us preventing us from speaking openly. I despair for Ireland and their uphill struggle now. I hope Scotland doesn't go the same way. Keep laughing women - I think this angers the TRAs very very much! Thank you OP.

The thing is, if everyone does the pronoun thing there will literally be no time for any work in any business. It only works if it's a tiny virtue signalling or attention seeking minority serviced by the vast majority.

Especially once 'they/theirs' or opposite sex pronouns stop making you seem different enough and everyone starts using the weird new ones. People can't remember all this, as a menopausal women remembering NAMES is difficult for me - what about considering my menopausal needs? What about non-NT employees? It's a good example of conflicts between different characteristics. It's not useful to the business in any way - people don't use pronouns to other people's faces, so it only causes offence if people are looking for it.

Unless you think one group become the overclass and the other are the underclass there only to service the needs of the former, then it's just unworkable in a functioning business.

If you DO think one small group of people should be an overclass I'd suggest you read some twentieth century history books about where this leads.

Nailed it.

This entire philosophy relies on a few special people with special privilege receiving service from everyone else. And the everyone else are certainly not supposed to receive equal consideration and treatment. Hence the 'be kind' versus 'reframe your trauma'. And 'extreme danger in the mens toilets' versus 'NAMALT'.

Lundy Bancroft has written some very interesting things on the double standards of entitlement that are intrinsic to the dynamic of an abusive relationship. Codependency is also not a healthy thing.

I also find it interesting how many detransitioners have written with great articulacy about how their need to control played a strong part during their transition, with people separated into those who would demonstrate compliance and that control was working, and detaching completely from those who resisted.

L

I meant to add to my post above about pronouns being unworkable if taken seriously for all that I felt the OP was simply demonstrating this in taking them as seriously as we're all supposed to. Demonstrating the unworkableness of it if everyone does it.

Of course we're all supposed to just silently accept the double standard that they're for the overclass and not for us normal women - we are supposed to put our pronouns in our signature so it's clear we're the lesser, service class but not demand the same accommodations - so I applaud the OP for very cleverly resisting this foundational requirement of the ideology and acting on the assumption of equality for all.

I look forward to hearing the update where an entire meeting is spent discussing how all the overworked and underpaid middle aged females are now they/them and the sum total of no meaningful work is done. I really hope given OP has shown she will treat everyone equally that this happens. (I predict an outburst of narcissistic male rage and entitlement may follow this meeting).

In my job I have to schedule meetings quite far in advance for people all around the world. It's quite common for me to schedule something and then someone from a particular religion to come back and say they are observing a religious holiday so need to change the date. So it actually would save me some time if people put their religious beliefs in their email signatures.

However, I don't think people should have to do this as the world has a horrible history of religious persecution and people shouldn't have to disclose their beliefs to all and sundry, especially people who they only interact with via email and never actually meet (same applies to pronouns and women being compelled or having pressure applied to put them in their signature of course).

Unfortunately you’re not capable of seeing what I’m saying so there’s no chance of a sensible conversation.

Back at you.

I know someone with fluid pronouns, but unless you were to talk about him/them behind his/their back, it doesn't really matter and he/they would be out of ear shot anyway, so is not likely to take offence.

We had a request to state pronouns in our email signatures at work a bit back and I was tempted to put I/me. Left it blank in the end.

Did we just get called thick? Why do they always resort to insults? I’m of the opinion if you have to resort to insults, your argument is invalid.

Exactly.

How childish and bigoted to object to such a harmless practice. Calling it out in a meeting just makes you look ridiculous.

I didn’t call anyone thick. If you look at the whole post I was saying due to the attitude that because I disagree on one point I’m the ultimate enemy (to the point it’s been implied I think death threats etc are good since I disagree with this) there’s no chance of you seeing my point of view. I think in fact you’re so disappointed no TRA have come along to say oh no you bad people, how dare you not accept pronouns, that you’ve decided to instead try to whip it up so I seem like the enemy. I’m not. But go ahead if you like, presume I called you thick when I said nothing of the sort.

Did we just get called thick? Why do they always resort to insults? I’m of the opinion if you have to resort to insults, your argument is invalid.

It's really tedious. Kanaloa wants to take a holier than thou position, but she keeps responding with sneers and insults about other people here, because apparently no one is allowed to find things funny she doesn't.

Kanaloa

Your behaviour on this thread is not exactly covering you in glory.

Thank fuck we still have humour to see us through these weird times. And I don't mean piling in on an individual which has not happened here. I mean being able to laugh and yes mock the absurdity of where this ideology has led to. Thank fuck the direction is turning and we in the UK didn't have laws imposed on us preventing us from speaking openly.

This.

You said we were incapable of seeing your point of view. That implies either we are too thick to understand or deliberately being obtuse? Both rather insulting.
I am not disappointed that the TRA have not turned up.

you have made the point you do not approve of what OP did. Others find it funny. Isn’t it great no one is forcing us to subscribe to one viewpoint on pain of receiving threats and abuse? People can have preferred pronouns, that is their prerogative. It is my prerogative to take the piss out of the ideology and express that opinion.. I love that about mumsnet.

I am not disappointed that the TRA have not turned up.

That's debatable, for at least one person on this thread.