Moment of realisation

[Footballmatchdilemma]

I was at an event last night where a trans woman I know vaguely was there. I had no reason to speak to them (the configuration of the room meant I wouldn’t have been able to if id wanted to anyway), but I could see them.

They are about my age, 40s, slim, nice clothes, long hair etc. But what made me, frankly, a bit pissed off, is that I thought, how nice for them to enjoy the long hair and the clothes and blah blah, but at this point in their life, what they won’t have to deal with, which most women will, is the sodding menopause. It hasn’t hit me yet, but I’m worried about how it will make me feel.

This person has no idea about this aspect of being a woman. No the menopause, not periods, not childbirth, none of it. How can they possibly, in any way, believe themselves to be a woman?! These things are the reality, before you even begin to talk about the burden of care that usually falls on women, low salaries etc.

It made me so very grumpy, and there’s no one I can talk to about it because my friends aren’t interested and my sister is all ‘be kind’.

Again it really depends on who we are talking about. The typical middle-aged man who decides to transition (as detailed by Dr Blanchard) would want to retain the benefits of masculinity (and wouldn't be interested in dating men) and has likely risen to the top of his profession due to being male.

If a teenage boy transitioned, typically they have been very effeminate gay men so potentially had a camp voice and possible slight physical presence (I know I'm being very stereotypical here), would not have had those beneficial male features anyway. And I'm sure campness/effeminate nature would work against a man in a professional capacity.

And what of those that have voice surgery and starve themselves to lose masculine physicality?

A transwomen benefiting from male privilege can only do so if they transitioned later in life, but if someone transitioned before the age of employment then they wouldn't have gained such privileges.

Not true. Boys have advantages that girls don't have, even before puberty. Look up some research about different treatment of girls and boys in/by schools, even primary schools. Look up how boy toddlers/babies are handled differently to girl toddlers/babies.
Young teenage girls and teenage boys have different experiences of puberty. Schoolgirls can fear rape or sexual assault. Schoolboys can commit these acts. Boys are often allowed out more by their parents and given more freedom than girls.

Not to mention things like only males inheriting titles.

What things did you have in mind? Bearing in mind that a transwoman is anyone who says that they are one.

Not true. Boys have advantages that girls don't have, even before puberty. Look up some research about different treatment of girls and boys in/by schools, even primary schools

I would argue the opposite. The attainment grades for girls has outperformed boys for decades, and girls are pushed to achieve a lot more than boys in education. I've seen first hand her boys-only schools allow girls in sixth form, yet the sister girls-only school refused to accept boys in sixth form. (You can go on about potential risk factor, but at the same time it reduces opportunities, and I know this as it worked against some family members of mine, all the more reason to keep single-sex spaces completely single sex).

Again it comes down to the type of male who transitions. An effeminate young gay male will be treated differently to other males, the fear of physical assault will be greater than for straight males, other males will not accept them as equal. Perhaps things have changed in 20 years, but when I was at school the camp boys were definitely made second-class citizens by other pupils.

Essentially either sex has its advantages and disadvantages.

Talking about male privilege, the transwoman I saw last night works in an role that is very, very heavily male dominated (but also very accepting of gay men so not homophobic/transphobic at all) and very sought after. They transitioned after becoming established in their career.

I’m sure the transition was difficult. I get that. But they don’t have my worries and I don’t have theirs.

When you’re laid, in bed at night

watching roaches climb the wall

if you called your dad

he could stop it all

"Again it comes down to the type of male who transitions. An effeminate young gay male will be treated differently to other males, the fear of physical assault will be greater than for straight males, other males will not accept them as equal. Perhaps things have changed in 20 years, but when I was at school the camp boys were definitely made second-class citizens by other pupils."

You don't deal with that by making girls human shields

Why? Would you say the same if we were discussing Adele, or Madonna, or Peter Andre? Are we not allowed to comment on people appearance now?

So, what do all women and transwomen have in common that make them women? How can a transwoman feel like a woman if all women feel differently and have different experiences as you have said?

Bollocks. Unless you’ve been living in a hole, you know you have seen worn reduced to ‘uterus havers ’ people with a cervix’ ‘people who menstruate’. ‘Birth givers’. You know you have. It’s been all over the press, media, social media, nhs websites. There was even someone from a Native American history site calling women ‘womb carriers’. Do you think we’re all just making it up for attention?

Just leave them alone, you just sound bitter.

Thankyou for telling the TRA that. Your support for women is noted and welcomed.

Bitter? Maybe! While I deal with all this actual female crap and they prance around with make up and hair swinging and male privilege tra la la. Ffs.

"Leave them alone" - leave women's single sex spaces alone. Stop trying to neutralise language women fought for to describe themselves. Stop describing these as "trans rights" when they are "men's demand". Then we're golden.

This 'more to being a woman than my body' thing....what is the 'more'?

What is it that makes you a woman if its not your body?

(I know I won't get an answer to this by the way, but I still like to put the question out there every now and then!)

Getting a contraceptive implant is a uniquely female experience that no transwoman will ever go through. You will need to think about the long term implications of contraceptive implant use if you plan on having used it right from when your periods started all the way through to menopause, I don't believe that is recommended?

A transwoman doesn't have periods because they have a male reproductive system, not because they looked at all of the contraceptive options available and made a decision about which one would prevent pregnancy most effectively whilst fitting in with their life.

Also, lucky you if you had the implant popped in and your periods stopped just like that - lucky you, as that is quite unusual I think?

Why can't I support women and trans people? False dichotomy here. The government are pitting us against each other. Focus on the real enemies eh. Oh, and climate change.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

Saying being a woman is a matter of your sex isn’t reducing people to their body parts. It’s just that the word “woman” is literally a description of someone who has those body parts.

In my opinion, you can support both but to do so you have to recognise that the oppression experienced by trans women is not the same as oppression experienced by natal women, and unpick that to work out how to best achieve equality for everyone.

Pretending that it’s as simple as TWAW and that it’s bigotry to talk about sex as opposed to gender is not supporting women, for many of whom their sex is a fundamental part of their lived experience.

I’m with you @Cantanka. The main issue here is that we are all being gaslit into believing and stating that transwomen are literally women when we all know they aren’t. But if we dare say they we are told we are transphobic. That’s where all the issues and conflicts come to play.

Transwomen are transwomen. Don’t gaslight me into stating otherwise.

Fucking hell Janet, haven't you been lucky? I am Italian, grew up in Italy and as a longer, good looking woman, my life was HELL because of the unwanted 'attention' which many times bordered on the aggression. I tried not to let it affect me but, yes, I had to risk assess all the time.

*younger, not longer. Autocorrect fail.

I also absolutely agree that the argument that women are more than their biology is very shaky, especially the simplistic way in which is often expressed. Let me try to nuance it a little.

There is a class of humans that, because of their biology has been marginalised/oppressed/violated. These are biological women.

That class of humans has created their own culture - a form of dress, speech, presentation, which is, however, as time goes by blurring more and more into our main culture (see, for instance, women's way of dressing).

Often such culture is parallel to mainstream culture, sometimes it panders to it to be accepted by the male paradigm.

A biological male can impersonate womanhood to take on the sociological dressing-on of this subculture, but they will never truly be part of it because they lack the biology that ultimately creates the whole woman culture.

Yes. Like many many women I’ve gone off hormonal contraception, I think I’ve given my body enough years of that. So trying to work out options- are we done with the family so Dh can get a vasectomy, are there any other good options? I don’t think there are, the coil sounds horrific when I find Pap smears painful.

I personally would have absolutely no common ground with a man who calls himself a woman.

The problem is they want to be spoken to as if they are women, they want to be accepted as a woman... my lived experience of BEING a woman doesn't match up with any of the expectations they will have. And frankly I've not the time to dedicate any of it to play pretend with a man in a dress to make them feel validated.

I see exactly where OP is coming from too. I wouldn't put on scrubs and wonder into an operating theatre, having skipped the many years of constant learning, heartbreak, sleepless nights, sacrifice and mistakes and say "I'm a surgeon, let's discuss all this shiny equipment in here!" So why should I give space to a person who hasn't had to suffer female puberty, periods, the havoc hormones wreak, child bearing, child rearing as a mother, menopause, not to mention the far reaching disadvantages of being a woman outside of simple biology. The unfair workplace, trying to juggle a home and work and sometimes children, the fear of walking home alone at night because of men.

I just don't have time for it, I won't entertain it.