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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

And this is exactly why Posie Parker is a liability

500 replies

MerchedBeca · 10/07/2022 12:49

Yes, she's charismatic, has style and says things out loud we all wish we'd had the ovaries to say.

But sometimes, the shit she says is fucking dangerous. HOW can she say she's standing for women's rights and then blithely say that our access to abortion is a price worth paying? WTFucking hell?

This isn't about elites, or head girls or any of that shit that Posie chucks at women who disagree with her. We're seeing the biggest pushback on women's rights since before women's lib, we need to build a grass roots movement to fight this, urgently, and Posie's tactics are harming us.

So, this morning someone called Billy Bragg out on his stance on women's rights, and he came back directly with a screenshot of Posie taking shit about Roe vs Wade.

We are NEVER going to convince the left wing that this is an issue they need to get to grips with if the loudest voice they hear on this Posie who's very obviously courting the US religious right, and if every time someone tries to have a conversation with the left about this topic, we're all smeared by association with Posie and whatever shit she's said recently. I know she says she's not a feminist but that detail is lost our detractors. She's a gift to those who want to paint us all as ultra right wing bigots, and this matters.

And this is exactly why Posie Parker is a liability
And this is exactly why Posie Parker is a liability
And this is exactly why Posie Parker is a liability
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
SolasAnla · 11/07/2022 08:07

MagnificentDelurker · 11/07/2022 01:25

criticism taken.

PP and many others GC feminists (or non feminists) are happy to align with ultra right on this issue, I am not. For them, being adult means that they get over possible disagreements with ultra right Christians.

For me, it means I get over my disagreements with TRAs and fight against what I perceive to be advancing fascism in UK. The attacks on our human rights and right to protest is far more important for me. In fact I perceive it to be existential threat.

your argument goes both ways.

Here is a surprising idea

You don't need to join a faction. If you don't agree with the faction you can be brave and stand up for you. If you are legally entitled to vote, you get your vote and the right to cast it in secret to prevent others from forcing you to swear allegiance to a flag or act as banner woman.

Lose the its them or me trope that all the people over there voting for socialist policy who don't agree with me are Right Wing. (Sorry, Ultra Right Christians)

The beauty of the UK is that you, yourself can campaign locally and if you can get enough people to agree with your policy you get the right to be an independant voice in the formation of the law.

Hoppinggreen · 11/07/2022 08:09

Mollyollydolly · 11/07/2022 00:00

God these weekly threads about KJK are so dreary. Same nonsense every time. Witchfinders everywhere. So tedious. Like her or don't like her, we don't care.

Well it appears you do,
I said that while I agreed with what she said and thought she did a lot of good her self promotion put me off a bit I was called thick, accused of a pile on, being a TRA and of name changing to make it look like lots of people agreed with me (completely untrue and reported)
It seems you are 100% behind every thing PP says or does or you are a TRA.
I am neither

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 11/07/2022 08:20

And then this glorious insight from christinarossetti39 which I make no apology for repeating:

You provide evidence that they haven't.

that was funny

i think christina is receiving money from the far right and i would really like her to prove that she doesn’t in fact receive money from the far right

Floisme · 11/07/2022 08:24

What's really weird is that, if it wasn't for all these threads by her detractors, all I would know about Posie Parker would be that she used to post on Mumsnet.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 11/07/2022 08:28

floisme

Exactly!

SolasAnla · 11/07/2022 08:29

MangyInseam · 11/07/2022 02:28

The reason this comes up so often I suspect is because the people who subscribe to this perspective, this kind of leftism, are anti-democratic.

I don't think they necessarily realize that about themselves, but it comes from the whole "right side of history" idea. They see politics as a battle between the good ideas and the bad, and aside from some small aberrations like gender ideology, the good ones are on the left. It doesn't really even matter if some, or many people don't agree, these are the ideas that all societies and cultures should embrace.

They may be ok with political discussion so long as it doesn't seem too likely that people with the wrong ideas might win, but ultimately a lot would actually be just as happy to see the Good ideas imposed.

So they have no patience for women who think the wrong things, or talk to the wrong people, and especially women who think it is ok to have substantially different ideas and argue for them.

The democratic idea, that people have a social discourse over issues through different institutions, and through the political process develop a society that reflects the values and beliefs of most, or strikes compromises, is not seen as having any particular value if it doesn't produce the right kinds of laws.

It's the understanding that this social discourse is valuable in itself, and that it's political resolutions are valid or constitute something important, that is disturbing to those with a fundamentally ideological political project.

Yep.

Their right side of history is the crows feasting on the dead, the sky black with smoke and not even the sound of a barking dog to be heard.
That right side of history ideology is easier than putting in the work needed maintain a range of voices and political beliefs.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 11/07/2022 08:32

The right side of history is fucking stupid

everyone knows that history is written by the victors

SolasAnla · 11/07/2022 08:48

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 11/07/2022 08:32

The right side of history is fucking stupid

everyone knows that history is written by the victors

everyone ^ should ^ know s that history is written by the victors.

Carefull now, don't be killing people with inclusiveness words, literal murder is bad.

Clymene · 11/07/2022 09:02

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 11/07/2022 08:20

And then this glorious insight from christinarossetti39 which I make no apology for repeating:

You provide evidence that they haven't.

that was funny

i think christina is receiving money from the far right and i would really like her to prove that she doesn’t in fact receive money from the far right

I think that'd the best answer I've ever had on here

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 11/07/2022 09:28

accused… of name changing to make it look like lots of people agreed with me

🙄you said you were the only one on this thread attacking PP.
That’s why I said that. If you’re not namechanging that was an insane thing to say. You’re not even the OP, how on Earth could you have the impression you were the only one?

Hoppinggreen · 11/07/2022 09:53

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 11/07/2022 09:28

accused… of name changing to make it look like lots of people agreed with me

🙄you said you were the only one on this thread attacking PP.
That’s why I said that. If you’re not namechanging that was an insane thing to say. You’re not even the OP, how on Earth could you have the impression you were the only one?

I didn’t say I was the only one doing anything I said I wasn’t part of a “pile on” and it was hardly an attack. I haven’t called anyone thick or insane
It was an opinion on PP and her actions - do we also think opinions are literal violence now too?
You seem very focussed on the negative things I said about PP rather than the things I said that supported her and her position, no dissent in the ranks it seems

YetAnotherSpartacus · 11/07/2022 09:53

I'm mostly with you OP. I would not go so far as to say that Posie is a liability but I do think she has latched onto this as a single issue that she is personally very invested in. I also think she is fighting a single (and very important) battle rather than the bigger war that some of us have been fighting for multiple decades now. I'm also uncomfortable with her aligning with those who are economically or socially conservative as she sometimes does. These individuals and organisations are no friends of women. That's her choice, but it is one that I will politely distance myself from.

I'm also personally not into charismatic leaders and in the second wave always gravitated to collectives rather than to organisations or campaigns run by women who were styled or self-styled as leaders.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 11/07/2022 10:01

We don't owe you anything, left or right!

We are women. We are speaking to you. But are you listening? No, you're not.

I'm having some trouble following this thread but I do want to say that my alignment with the left is not so much about my feminism but about my experiences growing up poor and working class. I'm not just an adult human female. There are multiple parts to my own identity and although I am now comfortably off I maintain a commitment to poor and working-class women who have been screwed over by the last few Tory PMs and their governments through neoliberal austerity measures including welfare cuts and cuts to public infrastructure.

LettuceB · 11/07/2022 10:17

achillestoes · 11/07/2022 06:32

@MangyInseam

Yes, they do think this.

We’re lucky in the UK that this issue isn’t on the table. We don’t need to hold off the right at all costs like I accept people have to do in the States.

🤔

bills.parliament.uk/bills/2028

And this is exactly why Posie Parker is a liability
SolasAnla · 11/07/2022 10:50

SolasAnla · 11/07/2022 08:07

Here is a surprising idea

You don't need to join a faction. If you don't agree with the faction you can be brave and stand up for you. If you are legally entitled to vote, you get your vote and the right to cast it in secret to prevent others from forcing you to swear allegiance to a flag or act as banner woman.

Lose the its them or me trope that all the people over there voting for socialist policy who don't agree with me are Right Wing. (Sorry, Ultra Right Christians)

The beauty of the UK is that you, yourself can campaign locally and if you can get enough people to agree with your policy you get the right to be an independant voice in the formation of the law.

@MagnificentDelurker

Three political position from 3 twitter accounts in the linked tweet.

mobile.twitter.com/StiffWhiffle/status/1545860079882186752

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/07/2022 11:08

People start all sorts of private members' bills, most never go anywhere. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that it's "on the table". But yes, some people don't agree with abortion and think of it as a clash of human rights. I completely disagree that a foetus has rights which supersede its mother's human rights but I can understand why others think differently, especially if they are religious. I don't think many of those people are necessarily evil, I just believe they are 100% wrong.

Like most people who elevate the imagined rights of trans people over the rights of women. Some are bad, some are just misguided. I expect I agree with them on many things relating to society, economics and the environment. But I still think they are 100% wrong on the trans issue.

LettuceB · 11/07/2022 11:20

People start all sorts of private members' bills, most never go anywhere. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that it's "on the table".

It very much is 'on the table'

on the table
idiom

If a plan or suggestion has been put/laid on the table, it has been made available for people to hear, read, or discuss.

And this is exactly why Posie Parker is a liability
MangyInseam · 11/07/2022 11:35

achillestoes · 11/07/2022 06:32

@MangyInseam

Yes, they do think this.

We’re lucky in the UK that this issue isn’t on the table. We don’t need to hold off the right at all costs like I accept people have to do in the States.

I would be careful about just accepting that. Left wing people come here and push that viewpoint as something that is just true, but they often are people who themselves are very immersed in id pol, apart from gender ideology. Moderate people on the right in the US look at them and think they are the people that need to be held off, who want to teach crazy stuff in schools or shut down discussion in universities.

It's like the idea that critical race approaches make sense in the US but not the UK - no they don't. They are still toxic race essentialism in the US.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 11/07/2022 11:47

But Posie Parker and those who follow her are making it so much easier for people like him to imply we're all right wing bigots.

Why are so so invested in what Bragg thinks or has to say?

He's demonstrated that he doesn't like women and that he doesn't think we should voice our opinions if they are at odds with his. He supports adult males in changing rooms with girls.

Why are you trying to appease him, rather than challenge his abusive opinions?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 11/07/2022 11:55

I didn’t say I was the only one doing anything

you did, you said ”well there’s only me so no pile on for a start.”

And as far as I know I haven’t been “focusing on the negative things you said”, I made a facetious remark about a blatantly ridiculous thing you said. You do kind of blur into one with all the other members of the pile-on, admittedly! I think you’re the username that accused her of having friends who defended her when someone slagged her off behind her back? And ironically you used the word “pile on” to describe that? Heinous behaviour, no doubt, although you couldn’t provide a link or an example.

I can’t imagine why anyone would think you’re part of a pile on, or an attack, when you’re making such flimsy accusations in a thread that attacks her in its very title!

it would be great if you could be a bit less disingenuous. 😀

MangyInseam · 11/07/2022 11:59

LettuceB · 11/07/2022 10:17

People are allowed to put private members bills forward on matters they think are important.

Many people do not think it is ok to have an abortion at any stage of the pregnancy, that is not an outlier position no matter how much you disagree. If anything the feminist position that it is morally neutral to kill a fetus hours before birth which is really not much different than killing an infant hours after birth is the outlier position. By a long shot.

If that is the approach people want they can try and convince people of it and put forward their own bills. People can create bills saying that abortion at any stage can be legal too. THat's how democracy works.

This idea that it means "fighting the right" is not good for politics. People who disagree aren't the enemy. And browbeating them into agreement is almost never effective, you actually need to convince them, and not with bs but by understanding and addressing their own views and concerns.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/07/2022 11:59

Is this our weekly Posie Parker thread amalgamating itself with the new regular "only trans activists will protect your right to termination" thread?

Thank you ambassador, you're spoiling us.

And also, sod off to whatever hole you dug yourself out of, because we have had years of trans activists gushing about how great Malta is. You didn't care about abortion access then, and let's not kid ourselves you care now. It's just a stick to beat women with, that you've found on the ground.

Less than a year ago, this was published in Prospect Magazine by a transwoman and lawyer, Robin Moira White.

Yes. The 2004 Gender Recognition Act (GRA) provides for a medically-based, panel-assessed gender recognition process. It is almost two decades old, and means that we are falling behind other liberal western democracies. Putting the process online and reducing the fee as the government has pledged to do are all very well—except that those on low incomes were already exempt. The UK process still requires expensive medical reports and extensive data-gathering. Malta, France and Ireland have self-declaration and make it work perfectly well.

Prospect Magazine

Bold is mine. As you see, the implication is that Malta is a "liberal western democracy" that we should model ourselves on. They have self-declaration for trans identities. Male people's word is good enough to entitle them to use women's spaces. However, a female person's word isn't good enough to entitle her to life-saving treatment. Let me explain why.

Malta has some of the strictest anti-abortion laws in the world and is the only country in the European Union to prohibit abortion entirely. Even the (lifesaving!) treatment of tube removal after an ectopic pregnancy (which constitutes an indirect abortion) is only allowed on a policy of case-by-case decisions.

Generous of them, hmm?

Apparently a "medically-based, panel-assessed" process in the UK is a human rights violation for legal documentation, but it is just fine when a woman's life is at stake.

There was some coverage in the press in 2020 about how that policy meant there was a delay of over two days (while they waited for authorisation) before the termination for one woman's ectopic pregnancy could be carried out. It's not like time could be of the essence or anything, is it? Not like fallopian tubes can rupture.

A Maltese doctors for life group defended the policy with the very convincing rebuttal that no pregnant woman in Malta had lost her life due to an ectopic pregnancy/tubal pregnancy for the past 10 years.

To that, I say,
i) that implies that one or more died before that timeframe, and;
ii) how many lost the tube due to rupture while waiting for the procedure?
iii) how many women had to suffer, both physically and emotionally, for an unnecessary period of time while waiting for authorisation to be given?

This is the text of the legislation.

Whosoever, by any food, drink, medicine, or by violence, or by any other means whatsoever, shall cause the miscarriage of any woman with child, whether the woman be consenting or not, shall, on conviction, be liable to imprisonment for a term from 18 months to three years. [Bold mine]

The same punishment shall be awarded against any woman who shall procure her own miscarriage, or who shall have consented to the use of the means by which the miscarriage is procured. [Bold mine]

Any physician, surgeon, obstetrician, or apothecary, who shall have knowingly prescribed or administered the means whereby the miscarriage is procured, shall, on conviction, be liable to imprisonment for a term from eighteen months to four years, and to perpetual interdiction from the exercise of his profession.

Yup, that's right. Women can go to prison for having a termination.

You can read more about Malta, pinnacle of human rights, here. Voice for Choice

I actually had the chance to make these points to the author, right here on mumsnet. My post must have been sadly missed, as I don't recall any response.

As late as June 21st this year, at a meeting of the Scottish Parliament Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, we heard yet more praise of Malta. The committee met to look at the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill. You see, back on June 21st, trans-activists hadn't spotted the abortion stick as one they could beat women with. They picked it up off the ground, where they'd carelessly discarded all women's rights, three days later on June 24th, the day the Roe v Wade decision was officially released, making abortion access headline news . Up until then, they didn't give a hoot about abortion access!

A representative from MurrayBlackburnMackenzie was in attendance, and live-tweeting discussions.

Also present were Dr Sandra Duffy, Lecturer in Law at the University of Bristol, and Dr Peter Dunne, Senior Lecturer, University of Bristol School of Law.

Dr Sandra Duffy cites Malta's system for gender recognition, noting its "high standards for human rights". She states that there was "robust legislative debate" when the GRA was passed in Ireland in 2015.

twitter 1

Her colleague joined in...

"really good example is Malta" echoes Dr Peter Dunne.

Twitter 2

Neither law lecturer is interested in the kind of legislation that determine whether a woman may live or die, clearly. It's so irrelevant to them that they can publicly claim Malta has high standards for human rights.

Also, Malta held a referendum on whether divorce should be legalised in 2011. This was the question. Do you agree with the introduction of the option of divorce in the case of a married couple who has been separated or has been living apart for at least four (4) years, and where there is no reasonable hope for reconciliation between the spouses, whilst adequate maintenance is guaranteed and the children are protected?

48% of voters said no. It's a rather more conservative place than the UK as a whole, never mind our own AIBU forum, wouldn't you say?

But sure, Malta is a "liberal" country we should aspire to be more like.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/07/2022 12:12

It very much is 'on the table'

Not in any credible sense. As I said, it's a stretch.

JoodyBlue · 11/07/2022 12:15

Hoppinggreen · 11/07/2022 08:09

Well it appears you do,
I said that while I agreed with what she said and thought she did a lot of good her self promotion put me off a bit I was called thick, accused of a pile on, being a TRA and of name changing to make it look like lots of people agreed with me (completely untrue and reported)
It seems you are 100% behind every thing PP says or does or you are a TRA.
I am neither

Nope - come on. You called her a bully and were called upon to evidence her bullying behaviour, and you had zip. I haven't read anyone call you thick. I haven't seen one person state that we need to be 100% behind PP. Simply asked for evidence before she is reputation trashed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/07/2022 12:16

Dr Peter Dunne, Senior Lecturer, University of Bristol School of Law.

Is that the Dr Peter Dunne who thinks that women "tolerate" the bodies of breast cancer survivors and therefore should "tolerate" penis in their spaces in the exact same way, or they are bigoted towards women with "different bodies"? Or is that a different Dr Peter Dunne who is also a raving misogynist. What are the chances, if so!

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