Macy and Bette forced to recant

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

That's it really. So depressing. It's great to see a few signs of hope in the UK (though we need to remember that every institution is captured, to some extent) but North America is lost.

I just saw Macy but not Bette. I understand why they would - the vitriol must be overwhelming to deal with - but it's sad that such simple statements can't be disagreed with more reasonably and that women are silenced.

Macy didn’t withdraw what she said, did she? She said she’s sorry if she hurt anyone.

The tweets demanding they say the catechisms (TW are W, TM are M) are chilling.

This movement thinks its progressive but it behaves like a deeply conservative religion. The most important thing is for everyone to be seen saying the special words.

Bette hasn't done a full recant, in fairness, but she has softened what she has said, and I suspect a total climbdown will follow.

And cancel culture doesn't exit?

Repent, motherfu*ker!

That interview of Macy cowed into submission is quite chilling.

This really is a modern day witch hunt isn't it? It'll take some high profile American with tremendous will to hold their line.

Still feel grateful Macy spoke up, hopefully people will see the interview and work out the horrible bullying and abuse on the so called 'progressive' side.

Sometimes I feel like I'm looking at a Black Mirror episode. The US is beyond toxic on this issue.

Ah, that is a shame. But hopefully people will have observed how it played out and thought some thoughts around that.

It really is what @FunnyTalks says:
The tweets demanding they say the catechisms (TW are W, TM are M) are chilling.

This movement thinks its progressive but it behaves like a deeply conservative religion. The most important thing is for everyone to be seen saying the special words.

When did Macy back track, this tweet is still up on her Twitter.

twitter.com/MacyGraysLife/status/1544736831681576961?s=20&t=kmvxVrMRWEuZA5dw5MlRdA

Do you think they really believe they are progressive? Don' they just say that as one of their tools to shut people up? They must know really that they are the opposite of progressive? Tying people's identities to their bodies can't really be seen as progressive by anybody surely?

twitter.com/todayshow/status/1545062145234292736?s=21&t=Ka4S0BCTxwe5C-7LYu0rog

Recanting doesn't really seem to absolve you of the cardinal sin of stating reality, though.

I don't see anything on Macy's twitter withdrawing her statement of reality.

I think Macy was a total politician in her answer. Go Macy.

Also that NBC host is a revolting sycophant to toxic gender woo. A Serena Joy type determined to make Macy squirm. Macy held her own, she is nobody's fool. But my god, that host summed up everything that is wrong with North American media and politics. There is no space allowed for nuance.

Oh. Public profession of faith. Interesting bit from that interview is where she says it takes a lot of courage to go out into the world and be honest about who you are. Irony there, as the claim of being someone of the other sex is not honest, or who you are. I suppose I have to add, in my opinion.

Then 'you are whoever you believe you are, and no one can dictate the for you, or take that away from you.' Irony there again. Macy can't think men (in any shape or form) are not a woman like her.

Never a public confession about 'hurting' women.

She must have been under a lot of pressure, and possibly losing work. However, she was right the first time.

And she said "woman is a vibe"

Very jumbled interview and she looked frightened. Poor woman. The gulag got
To her.

I just don’t understand why she didn’t come off Twitter for a week?!

close her account so nobody could message etc!!!

Men hate women more than we'll ever know.

That was difficult to watch.

Watching that, it appears certain to me that she's been ordered to do the recant by her record company or management.

The piece starts with the fact she's got a new album out, so everything that follows has to be seen in that context. She's squirming uncomfortably throughout and you can almost see her weighing up her words - delivering the message they've told her to deliver, but without actually denying what she said before

The interviewer is totally leading her and trying to put words in her mouth. 'Has your perspective changed?' 'I've learned so much and... y'know, being a woman is a vibe. It's something I'm very proud of and it's very precious to me and if you, in your heart, feel that's what you are, that's what you are, regardless of what anybody says or thinks. But yeah - I've learned a lot.'

From that I'm taking that MG knows exactly what being a woman is and what it means, and the thing she's learned is that in 2022 misogyny is so endemic that we're no longer allowed to define ourselves. I'd say this wasn't so much a retraction of what she said before but an acknowledgement that people whose identity doesn't align with material reality do exist, but she's not actually saying she believes their alternative reality.

I just don’t understand why she didn’t come off Twitter for a week?!

close her account so nobody could message etc!!!

Presumably because the consequences went way beyond attacks on Twitter. If most of your income is derived from playing live, and venues or promoters refuse to host you, then you have a significant problem unless you are wealthy enough to weather the storm.

This related to a concert she had already done, but it’s likely others would have threatened to ditch her.

metro.co.uk/2022/07/05/macy-gray-mighty-hoopla-blasts-insensitive-and-transphobic-comments-16945920/

See Lifton's 8 Criteria for Thought Reform. All of the following are quoted from the wikipedia account.

First we have the "Thought-terminating cliche"

The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis.

Then we have the 8 Criteria of Thought-Reform (a.k.a. Brainwashing)

1. Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

2. Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.

3. Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

4. Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

5. Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

6. Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating cliches, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

7. Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

8. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)

So…I'm not surprised by the softening, walking back and flavour of recantation. Online mobs can enforce people to become outliers and endure a force of social death, in combination with the loss of bookings and money, that's powerful leverage for recantation. Seeing Bette Midler do it will have a powerful chilling effect.

In the past, bullies and arseholes were just bullies and arsehole - now they get to performatively polish their halos while being bullies and arseholes so it's of no surprise that the "right side of history" attracts those types like flies round the proverbial.

Macy and Bette may be forced to chant the mantra but the truth is still the truth and everybody knows it.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
See Lifton's 8 Criteria for Thought Reform

Thanks for this. Another day, another useful bit of knowledge from the amazing women of FWR!

I do hope Macy is OK. Still thinking of the pile on against Kelly Holmes last week and hoping she is ok. TRAs really love to pile on hard against black women in particular.

It's the modern day Spanish Inquisition.

It can't be that only untouchables in the entertainment (and publishing) world like JKR and Gervais can hold the line? That's a small sphere.

I'd have thought Bette Midler had enough 'f you money' and status to say what she likes.

I guess it's more than that, it's facing a horrific kickback and personal slurs. Hats will be off to the future US double down JKR type when they emerge.