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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Baroness Nicholson on Regent Street flags

385 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 01/07/2022 09:23

Her letter here:

twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1542733465157877760/photo/1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Helleofabore · 04/07/2022 15:24

I am on a small phone and without access to a large screen for one month. And I cannot see how I can access the data outside a few charts.

So, the reality is, I am not going to be able to analyse it properly.

And it actually doesn’t matter. Because I have been discussing a particular cohort that is not adequately represented in this data to be of relevance.
This will not include enough of the young female cohort I refer to to make relevant conclusions.

anyway, some initial thoughts in any case, this is apparently survey data and I cannot see the collection mechanic.

In just reading this abstract though there are some other concerns.

The control group included respondents who desired gender-affirming surgeries but had not yet received any. Respondents were included in this group if they answered “Want it some day” for at least 1 of the aforementioned gender-affirming procedures but did not answer “Have had it” for any of them. We excluded participants who did not report desire for any gender-affirming surgeries.

Isn’t this self fulfilling?
Any patient who might desire, even desperately desire because they see this as a panacea, would be expected to have poorer mental health.

Wouldn’t it be logical to compare those who have had the surgery to those who did not want it and who might be happy with their bodies? That would assess whether the surgery brought the mental health issues in line with those who are not distressed about having to wait / may never get the surgery.

Also, smoking?
We know from conversations with transitioned males that they are constantly told not to smoke. I would expect to see some questioning to weed out those who have stopped smoking due to medical advice… and that the reality is that a large % would have stopped smoking due to those reasons, not necessarily because their mental health improved.

And did they stop smoking nicotine and switch to vaping or other alternatives? That would need investigating.

Plus hysterectomies. Almost as many females had hysterectomies as mastectomy (euphemistically called top surgery when most other operations were given appropriate medical terms..
but hey it is just women’s health being discussed…). There is no way to ascertain the reason for those hysterectomies.

Was it due to atrophy and other issues due to the drug regime? Was it purely voluntary?

And the age of the females having surgeries compared to the males.
That is hugely significant for several reasons (only one being that those females if young have not encountered the long term health issues associated with their decisions).

Also

Respondents in the exposure group were more likely to endorse a history of gender-affirming counseling,

Ie. This group also was more likely to have had counselling services to improve their mental health.

I cannot read on this screen exactly how (and no data) this ‘co-variate’ was treated in the analysis.

How were other comorbities treated too?

I think I want to see the data collection device and the data on this one.

Also, in regards to the ‘prestige’ appeal ‘it’s Harvard’. It is not led by a clinician with experience it seems. I think they were master’s students at the time. And you could say ‘it’s Yale!’ For that Yale study where the conclusion was retracted just over 12 months later.

I will wait and see whether there is any corrections for this study. I am too tired to look for any now.

But. Again. It may be that the previous cohort is well treated by surgeries. Do you deny the current clinicians, and past clinicians now doing research, are saying there are issues with using the same treatment plans for this current cohort of young transitioners who are the majority female? and that the two cohorts are different?

I look forward hearache to any answers to my concerns that I have mentioned.

LordLoveADuck · 04/07/2022 15:38

Hearach15 The Harvard study you quote focused only on adults "The following sociodemographic covariates were examined: age (18-44 years, 45-64 years, and ≥65 years),"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/07/2022 15:56

I salute your patience Helleofabore Wine

Conflictedunicorn · 04/07/2022 16:11

Me too @Helleofabore you are way more patient abd kind than some posters deserve. Anybody who used gendergp as what they think is a credible source, as well as posting a link to a flawed study as a gotcha does not deserve anyone’s time

GailForce10 · 04/07/2022 19:17

I have seen these troll zealots on other forums and they always use the same tactics. They ignore other posters, copy and paste the same old links and try and flood the discussions until everyone sane gives up. Some forum moderators I have seen don't tolerate their antics and will hoof them until they learn to act like adults

Conflictedunicorn · 04/07/2022 19:48

GailForce10 · 04/07/2022 19:17

I have seen these troll zealots on other forums and they always use the same tactics. They ignore other posters, copy and paste the same old links and try and flood the discussions until everyone sane gives up. Some forum moderators I have seen don't tolerate their antics and will hoof them until they learn to act like adults

I’m just using them to collect material for my novel. @Hearach15 is one of the main characters

Johnnysgirl · 04/07/2022 20:04

Conflictedunicorn · 04/07/2022 19:48

I’m just using them to collect material for my novel. @Hearach15 is one of the main characters

A worthy heroine indeed 😂

Conflictedunicorn · 04/07/2022 20:07

It’s called wooing the world - love In The gender wars. It’s coming along nicely.

Helleofabore · 04/07/2022 21:54

I don’t categorize hearache as an ideological zealot. I won’t put a name to what I suspect of their motivations. I don’t want my posts deleted but I suspect the motivations are age old and still sadly pretty common. Despite the assurances, no doubt from many, that they are ‘progressive’.

Plus ca change.

Conflictedunicorn · 04/07/2022 22:06

Helleofabore · 04/07/2022 21:54

I don’t categorize hearache as an ideological zealot. I won’t put a name to what I suspect of their motivations. I don’t want my posts deleted but I suspect the motivations are age old and still sadly pretty common. Despite the assurances, no doubt from many, that they are ‘progressive’.

Plus ca change.

Yes I suspect you are right. But it’s all material for my novel. It’s a jilly cooper/Barbara Cartland fusion with a love triangle between hearache , anti fascist and the other one I can’t be bothered to remember. You’d think they’d change tactics, try something new, but it’s the same old same old.

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:02

WinterTrees · 04/07/2022 13:59

I'm idly scrolling through a covid fog and am in awe, as ever, of Helleofabores patience, thoroughness and expertise.

Contrast with the poster who uses GenderGP as a source.

Seriously, Hearach15, you might want to do some more research into where your information is coming from.

My research comes from Harvard University - are you suggesting you know more than they do?

www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:05

Helleofabore · 04/07/2022 13:43

Are you a child? Demanding that I analyse your link when I have not even had time to download it.

Have you even opened any of the links I have posted in your haste to try to score a gotcha?

You know I will read it. When have I not analysed your links?

When have you ever posted anything that showed you have understood what has been posted in links in return?

I don’t recall you adding anything constructive and even critically evaluated.

Yet, here you are giving readers yet another live demonstration on the inane tactics of activists who have nothing but emotionally manipulative posts to pop onto the internet.

"I don’t recall you adding anything constructive and even critically evaluated."

Can you post evidence that this study by Harvard University is not "critically evaluated"?

www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/

That is quite a big claim and perhaps even defamatory against the authors who work for the world's most respected university.

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:17

I would also add this from Cornell University as I see posters are asking for longer-term studies:

"We conducted a systematic literature review of all peer-reviewed articles published in English between 1991 and June 2017 that assess the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being. We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm. As an added resource, we separately include 17 additional studies that consist of literature reviews and practitioner guidelines."

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

93% seems quite conclusive to me!

I'm very surprised that anyone would seek to deny trans people the appropriate healthcare when the overwhelming evidence is they benefit from it.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2022 11:18

Hearach15 · Today 11:02
“WinterTrees
I'm idly scrolling through a covid fog and am in awe, as ever, of Helleofabores patience, thoroughness and expertise.”

“Contrast with the poster who uses GenderGP as a source.”

“Seriously, Hearach15, you might want to do some more research into where your information is coming from.”

My research comes from Harvard University - are you suggesting you know more than they do?

www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/

Hearach15

I don’t understand why you are saying this again, as you said it yesterday and someone with knowledge of how to evaluate research answered at great length.

Do you actually think that all of the hundreds of people writing research papers at Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, and other prestigious universities always, (and each of equal merit, never contradicting each other), write unflawed research, are never influenced by companies paying for it,

never become out of date in light of new information?

I am not a scientist and am not commenting on the link you posted. But someone who evidently is professionally scientific, took a great deal of their own time to explain their concerns.

Yet you seem to have not read it!

There is no point in that case in anyone answering you.

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:19

Helleofabore · 04/07/2022 21:54

I don’t categorize hearache as an ideological zealot. I won’t put a name to what I suspect of their motivations. I don’t want my posts deleted but I suspect the motivations are age old and still sadly pretty common. Despite the assurances, no doubt from many, that they are ‘progressive’.

Plus ca change.

I am actually an ideological zealot when it comes to LGBT equality and liberation. I am in exactly the same way the noble Baroness is ideological in her opposition to LGBT equality and liberation.

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:20

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2022 11:18

Hearach15 · Today 11:02
“WinterTrees
I'm idly scrolling through a covid fog and am in awe, as ever, of Helleofabores patience, thoroughness and expertise.”

“Contrast with the poster who uses GenderGP as a source.”

“Seriously, Hearach15, you might want to do some more research into where your information is coming from.”

My research comes from Harvard University - are you suggesting you know more than they do?

www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/

Hearach15

I don’t understand why you are saying this again, as you said it yesterday and someone with knowledge of how to evaluate research answered at great length.

Do you actually think that all of the hundreds of people writing research papers at Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, and other prestigious universities always, (and each of equal merit, never contradicting each other), write unflawed research, are never influenced by companies paying for it,

never become out of date in light of new information?

I am not a scientist and am not commenting on the link you posted. But someone who evidently is professionally scientific, took a great deal of their own time to explain their concerns.

Yet you seem to have not read it!

There is no point in that case in anyone answering you.

And I've also linked one from Cornell University:

"This search found a robust international consensus in the peer-reviewed literature that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender."

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

WinterTrees · 05/07/2022 11:24

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:02

My research comes from Harvard University - are you suggesting you know more than they do?

www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/

The study examined data from the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey

2015 is virtually akin to the Victorian age in terms of gender ideology and its associated treatments. Quite aside from the flaws in research methods in the study you cite, I'd say many, many people here know more than even the 'experts' did in 2015, because time has given us much more insight, knowledge of outcomes and ability to evaluate.

Helleofabore · 05/07/2022 11:25

Did you even bother reading my post then?

And again, you are all ‘but it is Harvard’, when that ‘Yale’ study had a correction printed around 12 months time to state the results were too weak to have made the conclusions they did!

Imagine! Yale!!

Your posts tend to highlight your lack of actual engagement even in what YOU post, let alone anyone else posts.

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:28

Helleofabore · 05/07/2022 11:25

Did you even bother reading my post then?

And again, you are all ‘but it is Harvard’, when that ‘Yale’ study had a correction printed around 12 months time to state the results were too weak to have made the conclusions they did!

Imagine! Yale!!

Your posts tend to highlight your lack of actual engagement even in what YOU post, let alone anyone else posts.

Cornell:

"We identified 55 studies [between 1991 and 2017] that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings."

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

I have no idea why you are asking me to disagree with the conclusion of 93% of the studies on this topic but there we are. I guess I just agree with the overwhelming body of scientific research on this topic.

Helleofabore · 05/07/2022 11:28

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:20

And I've also linked one from Cornell University:

"This search found a robust international consensus in the peer-reviewed literature that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender."

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

Yeah. This isn’t a ‘gotcha’ moment either.

I have already detailed twice before why those 50+ studies are not relevant at all to the current cohort of young transitioners.

I doubt you have even read one of them.

I simply cannot be arsed to go through them all again to discuss them. You can use advanced search or Google to find my previous two posts to those posters who tried exactly the same move you just did.

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:29

WinterTrees · 05/07/2022 11:24

The study examined data from the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey

2015 is virtually akin to the Victorian age in terms of gender ideology and its associated treatments. Quite aside from the flaws in research methods in the study you cite, I'd say many, many people here know more than even the 'experts' did in 2015, because time has given us much more insight, knowledge of outcomes and ability to evaluate.

Yes, famously trans people only appeared in 2015.

Hearach15 · 05/07/2022 11:31

Helleofabore · 05/07/2022 11:28

Yeah. This isn’t a ‘gotcha’ moment either.

I have already detailed twice before why those 50+ studies are not relevant at all to the current cohort of young transitioners.

I doubt you have even read one of them.

I simply cannot be arsed to go through them all again to discuss them. You can use advanced search or Google to find my previous two posts to those posters who tried exactly the same move you just did.

Trans people existed 1991 -2017. They haven't changed you know. A trans person in 2022 is just as one in 2017. The research is just as valid and the conclusion is overwhelming.

Helleofabore · 05/07/2022 11:33

You seriously need to engage hearache because you are looking very foolish right now. You have yet again shown you are here for the ‘gotchas’ and not actually reading anything written or linked.

Everyone else who has read what has been linked or posted can immediately see why your posts are not showing what you desperately which.

Helleofabore · 05/07/2022 11:33

Wish.

KittenKong · 05/07/2022 11:34

In 1991 - trans sexual or transgender people existed absolutely. No kids.
2022 - the ‘umbrella’ covers Grayson Perry, J Edgar Hoover (if the rumours are to be believed) and probably Annie Lennox (mis 80s). Helluvalotta kids.