Page 4 | Fionne Orlander has had genital surgery

Pluvia · 2022-06-08T10:24:14+00:00

On the NHS at an expensive London clinic. https://twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1534471741531115520 I've appreciated and followed him on Twitter for years and know how bad the dysphoria is and yet my heart sinks that even someone as thoughtful and articulate as him thinks that this will solve anything.

FemaleAndLearning · 09/06/2022 10:56

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 09/06/2022 08:49

The problem @FemaleAndLearning is the inequity.

I have, and have always had, very large breasts. As a teen I tried to get reduction surgery but was refused - told I was lucky to have such assets by one GP.

I have a congenital hip issues and associated back problems, Large tits made everything worse.

As I got older my posture changed, back pain moved up my spine, my shoulders have curved. Boobs still very large and no GP has ever done anything other than commiserate and say no! Now, closing in on 60 years old, my posture, knees, hip, back, even my gait, is worsening. I can't exercise (other issues) and the only thing that would relieve the constant pain and pressure on my spine would be breast reductions surgery.

But no. Big tits and back pain is 'normal for women' apparently.

Effectively I have lived a life more painful than it needed to be because I am female!

That is awful for you. Yes, I am learning that women's health issues are not taken seriously.

FemaleAndLearning · 09/06/2022 11:01

NotBadConsidering · 09/06/2022 10:11

I don’t see it that way at all Tinsel.

I see this story as the living, breathing embodiment of what Helen Joyce is saying. This is a hugely drastic final step, no doubt not undertaken lightly. But it has required accommodation. It is surgery funded by the NHS, the only way it can be accommodated is for it to be done privately. Fionne will undoubtedly have problems with this, because there is a high rate of problems, which will need specialist follow up. Fionne’s physically normal body has been changed into something that will require lifelong attention and medical treatment. Of course Fionne would argue that that is worth it to balance the mental health aspect, but it’s still an accommodation that is needed: surgical outpatient appointments for life. And then there’s the risk that Fionne still doesn’t find long term mental health improvement.

And people think the Helens are “genocidal” for wanting fewer people like Fionne doing this 🙄. In what “sane world” is this treatment good? To take a physically healthy body and medicalise it for life to treat mental health distress? Fionne clearly sees this as the only way, but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to find a better way for the future and make sure that if it’s going to happen, it’s as rare as hen’s teeth.

This.
It comes back to just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. That first surgeon who suggested chopping body parts off to alleviate mental distress has a lot to answer for.

Leafstamp · 09/06/2022 11:04

Apologies, not RTFT, whilst Fionne has my sympathies for the suffering he has re his body and what he has now put himself through, I did not appreciate him calling it genital reconstruction surgery. You cannot reconstruct something if it wasn't there before.

We need to be very careful as this ideology is all about changing the meaning of words and this appears to be yet another example.

I'm not having it.

DaisyQuakeJohnson · 09/06/2022 11:14

TinselAngel · 08/06/2022 23:46

Why on earth are women here, on a feminist board, talking about the status of one particular male person's genitals?

If someone chooses to share such detail about themselves, we'd all be better served by just smiling and waving.

YY I agree.

Discussing anyone's genitals seems odd and when it's around a surgery that has relatively poor outcomes and insufficient research - that is being pushed by a lobby who are aggressively anti-women ... I struggle with the very concept that it's appropriate for FWR. But I struggle with all the threads that laud any men for their roles in the gc movement. Yy some can be allies but I've always rolled my eyes at the hagiography.

Original poster

Pluvia · 09/06/2022 11:23

TinselAngel · 09/06/2022 09:09

Maybe all us trans widows should start a thread each time one of our exes has surgery?

I take it you're addressing this to me? I don't know any of your exes: I haven't followed their stories, read what they've written, come to understand a bit of what goes on in their heads. Fionne's been out there for years, apparently self-reflective and struggling with dysphoria. I know many people on this forum are aware of him. (I'm using he and him because Fionne acknowledges that he's male and has talked about always using male loos etc).

OP posts:

Hagiography · 09/06/2022 11:29

I've always rolled my eyes at the hagiography.

Trying not to take that personally ...

FeminismAndCake · 09/06/2022 11:37

TinselAngel · 09/06/2022 08:27

Yep. I've slept on it and I'm still incredulous that there's a memorial thread here to somebody's penis.

Tinsel wins at mumsnet, truly I’m not going to read a better post today

Original poster

Pluvia · 09/06/2022 11:37

FemaleAndLearning · 09/06/2022 11:01

This.
It comes back to just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. That first surgeon who suggested chopping body parts off to alleviate mental distress has a lot to answer for.

Show quote history

YY, this.

OP posts:

DaisyQuakeJohnson · 09/06/2022 11:47

Hagiography · 09/06/2022 11:29

I've always rolled my eyes at the hagiography.

Trying not to take that personally ...

😂oops - sorry! No personal insult intended 😃

Hagiography · 09/06/2022 11:53

No problem, Daisy. I'm only just breaking this name in, it might need sent back if it causes confusion!

terryleather · 09/06/2022 12:24

Discussing anyone's genitals seems odd and when it's around a surgery that has relatively poor outcomes and insufficient research - that is being pushed by a lobby who are aggressively anti-women ... I struggle with the very concept that it's appropriate for FWR. But I struggle with all the threads that laud any men for their roles in the gc movement. Yy some can be allies but I've always rolled my eyes at the hagiography.

Pretty much this.

timeisnotaline · 09/06/2022 12:42

TinselAngel · 09/06/2022 09:24

Well we've got bugger all chance of trans widows perspective being considered by policy makers when it's not even considered on FWR.

Trans widows perspective is from the cost of the relationship, what agp partners demand of their wives, and the lack of community support and recognition surely? Does any of that apply to Fionne? Not that I can see. Isn’t this a thread which is harmless, and if you don’t like it you can scroll on by?

it is a fair point re the relevance to fwr- this thread is only really adjacent to the topic as in it is about someone who comments on the topic.

TinselAngel · 09/06/2022 12:56

Gay transitioners have partners and families too. Not all trans widows exes are AGP, some are gay.

This thread is not harmless, it is centring a male in a feminist space, and given we're supposed to be working against child transition, I don't see the merit in promoting adult transition/ surgery.

It would be much easier no doubt if trans widows "scrolled on by" some threads on which posters find our presence inconvenient I am sure.

picklemewalnuts · 09/06/2022 13:42

I don't think anyone is promoting Fionne's surgery. If anything, I'd say people are sad that it's come to this but given that it has, hope he recovers well.

I'd lament the need for a woman to have a mastectomy, whether because of cancer or as a trans surgery. I would hope her recovery was good, whatever the reason for the op.

I wouldn't lament Samphire having surgery, but lament the time she had to endure while her body became less and less fit as a result.

There is inequity that should be commented on, in Fionne getting surgery while Samphire did not- and it's a feminist issue.

I wouldn't be interested in the operations of your ex, Tinsel, as I don't know them in any way. I'd listen while you complained about it though, if you needed me to.

TinselAngel · 09/06/2022 14:10

I wouldn't be interested in the operations of your ex, Tinsel, as I don't know them in any way.

Him.

I think women would do well to consider the motivations of males who embed themselves in women's movements and how that leads to them being treated as special and different.

Solidarityovercharity · 09/06/2022 15:29

I wish we could discuss things without being policed

BootsAndRoots · 09/06/2022 15:35

I've never heard of this person before this thread, my feelings on the matter are neutral.

But what saddens me is that people who have had sex change surgery now feel ashamed to say that they have had it due to wider pressure within the so-called transgender community that self-ID rules and surgery and hormones are secondary.

Essentially saying that you've had SRS is now considered transphobic.

Original poster

Pluvia · 09/06/2022 15:44

That's a new one on me. Talk about a movement that's eating itself.

OP posts:

TinselAngel · 09/06/2022 16:10

self-ID rules and surgery and hormones are secondary.
Unless you're a young female, in which case you should have a mastectomy as soon as possible.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 09/06/2022 16:41

Solidarityovercharity · 09/06/2022 15:29

I wish we could discuss things without being policed

So do I but there are gatekeepers all over the place. We've had several from different perspectives on this thread. The 'you're not feminist enough', the 'what about my particular experience that you're not centring' as well as all the usual you can't say anything pro this as it's anti that.

timeisnotaline · 09/06/2022 16:50

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 09/06/2022 16:41

So do I but there are gatekeepers all over the place. We've had several from different perspectives on this thread. The 'you're not feminist enough', the 'what about my particular experience that you're not centring' as well as all the usual you can't say anything pro this as it's anti that.

Show quote history

Yes indeed. It used to upset me more but now I’m rather meh about it which is a much calmer way to be.

Cailleach1 · 09/06/2022 17:23

I really don't think women having a surgical procedure, such as a mastectomy, in order to remove cancer is in any way equivalent to an elective, cosmetic surgery.

MorningPlatypus · 09/06/2022 17:45

TinselAngel · 09/06/2022 10:52

You've all interacted with me but I wouldn't expect a thread on FWR if I decided to have a breast reduction.

Yup.

And they're almost impossible to get on the NHS.

DrDetriment · 09/06/2022 18:49

This is the second time I have had a perfectly reasonable and totally not abusive or trolling comment deleted from the feminist board. I am actually quite frightened at the policing MN seem to be doing with no explanation as to the deletion. Other, much more inflammatory comments, are allowed to stand so why in earth was my very reasonable question about gender dysphoria v BDD deleted?

nightwakingmoon · 09/06/2022 19:21

DrDetriment · 09/06/2022 18:49

This is the second time I have had a perfectly reasonable and totally not abusive or trolling comment deleted from the feminist board. I am actually quite frightened at the policing MN seem to be doing with no explanation as to the deletion. Other, much more inflammatory comments, are allowed to stand so why in earth was my very reasonable question about gender dysphoria v BDD deleted?

@DrDetriment I’ve been deleted recently for a similar, measured, factual post on a similar topic. Apparently (I asked for feedback on this), the message from the MN mod was because it’s offensive to suggest that gender dysphoria is a psychiatric condition akin to other named dysphorias. This, despite it being literally listed as such (alongside body dysmorphic disorder and body integrity disorder) in the international medical standard designation on psychiatric conditions, the DSM-V.

AKA some of our readers prefer a neutral medical fact to be deleted because they don’t like it — and MN is going along with this.