So disgusted tonight

[Mollyollydolly]

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

Well it could be said about any group of people with dysphoria about themselves. You don't seem to grasp the point apart from seeing it as an opportunity to lamely make digs at women here, how surprising.

‘There is a lot of people mixing up gender incongruence and gender dysphoria on this thread.’

Am I right in saying the difference is that you can perceive yourself to have a gender that is incongruent with your sex without the distress (that is, what they call dysphoria)?

And if so, is that quantitatively different to just wanting to wear feminine clothing when you are male, or wanting to wear masculine clothing when you are female?

It is, isn't it? And yet we must be chastised, so take it on the chin, like a good girl!

Gender dysphoria is the medicalised dissonance between the naturally innate incongruence, and the binary man-made society.

Point out specifically where the two are being confused by posters, was what I meant.

Isn't it the people who are insisting that trans people require opposite sex hormones and surgery the ones who are pathologising trans people? Medical treatment is normally only used on people who are unwell or who have a medical condition.

‘Gender dysphoria is the medicalised dissonance between the naturally innate incongruence, and the binary man-made society.’

What about the ‘incongruence’ is ‘innate?’

And what is the ‘incongruence’ between? What and what? The body and the expectations people have of what that body should wear?

Or the body and the desired body?

Or (because some people say it’s about this) the body and the brain? As in some people have a male body but a physically female brain?

These posts show what I mean above: I don’t understand what is being claimed.

The difference being that I think a butch lesbian should be able to be a butch lesbian, but trans ideology wants them to have hormones and a double mastectomy?

perhaps you could tell me why a butch lesbian might think they're man and then tell me who's doing the pathologising?

Datun has nailed it.

I think it was incredibly poorly expressed and should be explained much more clearly. I struggle to think Joyce is transphobic, I understand the explanations being given here, but I believe her wording was deeply offensive.

‘I think it was incredibly poorly expressed and should be explained much more clearly. I struggle to think Joyce is transphobic, I understand the explanations being given here, but I believe her wording was deeply offensive.’

Can you explain exactly why? This isn’t snark. I’m trying to understand what you think being trans actually is.

Most people understand that internal and external homophobia might make an effeminate gay man feel more comfortable presenting as a woman. The same for butch lesbians.

Also there are certainly very few women on here who don't understand how men can fetishise women's oppression. Five minutes on this board makes it quite clear that men can fetishise anything.

Also the massive over representation of children with autism has also been explained by pointing out that those children don't feel they fit in, and that transitioning to the opposite sex might feel like a solution

I have no doubt missed some reasons to transition, though.

Can anyone let me know what they are?

Gender incongruence is the manifestation of natural diversity.

Natural diversity of what?

Just quoting myself.

I meant to add that feminists spend a lot of the time trying to eliminate homophobia, lesbiphobia and misogyny.

Not accommodate it.

‘Natural diversity of what?’

This. What is gender, and between which two sites (whether physical/psychological) is the incongruity?

I think it was incredibly poorly expressed and should be explained much more clearly.
It said what it said, though.
Very clearly.
I understand the explanations being given here, but I believe her wording was deeply offensive.
You say it was deeply offensive, you disagree with her.
Despite some posts twisting themselves into knots trying to say she didn't mean what she actually said or it actually meant something else, you heard for yourself and can take away from that for yourself what you will - what you think of what she actually said, not others interpretations.

For me, if Joyce thinks people aren’t innately ‘transgender’, that must mean they at some point move from a position of being happy with their sex to being very unhappy with it. As harsh as it might sound for her to be so blunt about it, if she is saying it would be better if people didn’t enter this state (of unhappiness) then that is a coherent point. It’s not bigotry.

Absolutely agree

For me, if Joyce thinks people aren’t innately ‘transgender’, that must mean they at some point move from a position of being happy with their sex to being very unhappy with it. As harsh as it might sound for her to be so blunt about it, if she is saying it would be better if people didn’t enter this state (of unhappiness) then that is a coherent point. It’s not bigotry.

That's exactly how I heard it, and I have now watched the full episode. There is compassion for people and how they can be accommodated. It's worth watching the whole hour long conversation.

For me, if Joyce thinks people aren’t innately ‘transgender’, that must mean they at some point move from a position of being happy with their sex to being very unhappy with it
If Joyce isn't trans though, why does it must mean trans people move from being happy to very unhappy?
It doesn't '' must mean'' anything as how would she know what being trans is like, or how happy and unhappy they are?
It's just someone not trans telling them how to live and how they must feel.

It's just someone not trans telling them how to live and how they must feel.

She's not, she's saying what she thinks about it. We all have views on what we perceive that other people believe.

I was very uncomfortable hearing what Joyce had to say.

I think it has been misinterpreted, however in my opinion its a clear own goal.

The words that were used have allowed it to be misinterpreted.

Joyce and to a lesser extent Stanisland (who did nothing to counter) have given lots of ammunition and to an outsider looking in, the words were disturbing to say the least.

What I think trans means has nothing to do with anything. Saying that in a sane world, we want to have as few people as possible with X is very likely to be offensive to all people with X. We can substitute all kinds of comparitors: Tourettes, autism, Down`s Syndrome. None of them would be okay, particularly from the mouth of someone that the vast majority of that group feel is hostile to them in the first place.

Transgender if it means anything at all means people who are unhappy with their sex. Obviously it’s better when people are happy than unhappy.

And it’s better when people are healthy than unhealthy, and trans medical interventions even in the best of cases make people unhealthier than they would have been.

This isn’t even complex.

It's just someone not trans telling them how to live and how they must feel.

Odd that you point that out about a woman discussing ways to make health care for transpeople safer, more effective.

But nobody ever points it out when it is a man parodying women, using all of the stereotypes, and insisting he is a woman. Not in business. Not in cycling. Not in academia. Not in university alumni. Not in any walk of life, it seems.

But a woman 'forgetting' to sugar coat the realities of a dysphoria? Have at her, ensure she knows her transgression has been noted. Threaten to kill her in myriad ways!