So disgusted tonight

[Mollyollydolly]

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

ChristabelHolloway

Do you honestly think the women on this board don't know anyone who is trans? Or don't have someone who is trans in their family? Or have been married to someone who is trans? Do you think that this is all an opinion about something that no one has any experience of?

There are trans and reams of narratives on these boards from people who know trans people. Thousands upon thousands of posts from women women are married to transwomen, or whose children identify as trans.

Of course people can empathise with issues like gender dysphoria, social contagion, wanting to belong. There are threads from desperate mothers who are agonising how to deal with their confused children who want hormones because their schools have taught them an ideology that is quite, quite divorced from reality.

If you think that women on a feminist board, on a website devoted to parenting aren't looking at this out of a very frightened sense of concern and empathy, then you're not bloody listening.

I know trans people, I'm closely related to one, and I've sought to empathise with them and understand them as much as I think is possible for a non-trans person. Can you say the same?

Such blinkered viewpoints and misunderstandings about the life experience of the people on FWR is not surprising but it never ceases to be disappointing.

You've plainly not read the many accounts by posters about their family members and friends who are within the trans umbrella. Have you looked through the transwidows support thread, far less their website?

I have to wonder if you've attempted the inverse of your non-challenge? Have you attempted to understand and empathise with the GC people whom you know? Any gay or lesbian friends and family who are disturbed that they're being redefined as same gender rather than same sex attracted? Any woman friends and family who are in prison and in favour of single sex prisons? Any female friends and family who've experienced the trauma of rape and want the refuge of a single-sex space to support them?

Do you think/believe you are a woman?

I know I am a woman because I am female.

Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not?

Yes I do, because they are also female. I don't relate to males in that way, regardless of their personal identity.

Are you reasonably happy with your body, especially the sexual parts of it?

Sometimes, sometimes not.

If so you have the gender woman

That's your ideology speaking. I don't believe in "gender" as distinct from sex. Gender is an external social construct. I am a member of the female sex. That is it.

I'm closely related to one, and I've sought to empathise with them and understand them as much as I think is possible for a non-trans person. Can you say the same?

I know you aren't trans but I'm genuinely trying to understand the points you have been making. But you haven't answered what is a very direct question and then have basically accused me of being disingenuous.

And yes, I can say the same re trans people. The ones I know and love would confirm that to you! I can't understand why people believe in god but I respect their right to do so, I just don't expect them to insist I agree he exists. Likewise I can't understand why some people believe you can 'feel like a woman', but I respect their right to say they do, I just don't expect to be called disingenuous when I ask them to explain what 'feeling like a woman' means without using gender stereotypes.

As I said, nobody has ever answered that question without using gender stereotypes when I've asked it in an attempt to understand the point of view.

And you haven't answered it either. Your prerogative of course but if people are engaged in a conversation and ask direct questions but never get a direct answer, it's not them being disingenuous.

Do I think I am a woman?

I was taught that was biological. If so, yea, if not I don't know what I am

Do I relate to females differently to how I relate to males

Nope. Why would I?

Am I happy with my body especially the sexed parts ?

Nope. Knees are a bit rubbish also.

But the world sees me as female , and some ( not nice ) people treat me differently as a result . I don't see why I should be treated differently and think that should stop

You didn't actually make any point, as people have painstakingly explained to you. You did not give a coherent definition of gender identity that doesn't have any relation to male/female stereotypes
Yes, the poster did .
You pretend it hasn't been answered though (as usual.)
Same for others saying "nothing?no?
The posts are there, you don't even need to go back very fair at all - they're barely even a page away from your own comments!
Then you wonder why people don't engage.

I genuinely can't see where someone has given a definition of gender identity that isn't simply 'feeling like a woman', that doesn't rely on gender stereotypes.

If I've missed it please can you share it? This isn't snarky, I genuinely can't see the question answered in any way that doesn't rely on a 'feeling' or stereotypes.

Oh, what was the answer, Janet?

Can you point it out, I must have missed it?

Question was : 'what is it to feel like a woman'?

Thanks.

The posts are there

Just saying some words isn't actually an answer, it has to mean something coherent in relation to the question. As I said. And the poster doesn't wish to engage further on this question. How very surprising.

Being trans - yearning to be a woman, is what I recall. Is that right GoodJanetBadJanet.

Is that the answer?

I've reread all the posts and this is the closest I can find to an answer to the question 'what is it to feel like a woman':

'Do you think/believe you are a woman? Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not? Are you reasonably happy with your body, especially the sexual parts of it? If so you have the gender woman'

'Do you think/believe you are a woman?

This is just answering the question with more questions. Thinking/believing you are a woman does not make you a woman.

Relating to other women as in some way like you

What is 'some way'? In what way? In the way I fry an egg? Or this answering the 'what does it feel like to be a woman' with 'how do you feel like a woman'? Which is not answering the question.

As for happy with the body bit, well I can appreciate that if I have no dysphoria over my sex I am not trans.

But my feelings about my body have absolutely no bearing on the embodied reality of my body.

Feelings, emotions and wishes and desires may be sincerely felt; this does not mean they are the equivalent of material reality.

So to extrapolate, that post apparently claimed this is what it is to feel like a woman:

1 'thinking/believing you are a woman'.

2 'relating to other women'.

3 'being happy/comfortable with having a female body'.

The first two are circular definitions. 'feeling like a woman means thinking you are a woman means believing you are a woman means relating to other women'.

It comes down to 'gender identity is a vague, unquantifiable, indescribable feeling'.

The last statement is about one's feelings about having a female body. Most women have varied and changeable feelings about their bodies, in my experience, I'm really not sure there's a universally shared feeling among all women about being happy/unhappy with/in their body.

Or have I misunderstood? Happy to be corrected.

Are you talking about their post that was a list of questions about how I felt about my body? What does liking or disliking your body have to do with gender identity?

I’m jumping to the end of the thread to say hand on heart I do not believe anyone here (or anyone) is qualified to say there is no such thing as a genuine trans person. A role for people living as the opposite sex has been documented in numerous cultures for at least hundreds of years. Conversely, the ‘no evidence’ applies equally to complex conditions like fibromyalgia, and ‘trying to cure it’ applies to homosexuality. I do think there is considerable evidence both that not all young (including early 20s wirh todays ‘extended adolescence’) trans people are actually trans, that some trans people are agp or if that doesn’t really exist, something similar, and that some people eg criminals and rapists will exploit the option to be trans. This is quite different from saying there is no such thing as trans.
That video is very poor wording and I understand why it’s copping so much flak. Frankly it deserves criticism- I don’t know much about Helen Staniland but I hope Helen Joyce is regretting her phrasing. It would be great if she could share a clear statement on what she meant and honestly I think an apology is due for the phrasing used.

So what do you think 'genuine trans' is timeisnotaline?

In terms of similar roles in other cultures, it's my understanding that it applies to effeminate gay men who would actually take on roles expected of females. The acceptance of which would require a basis of sexism to make such a distinction possible.

Sort of uber stereotyping.

It’s happened the other way around in Albania @Datun . I’m not saying there is anything conclusive about that evidence, and agree gender roles are relevant, but I am saying we do not know enough to know it’s not real, and I would not be prepared to say that and risk that being a harmful statement. There are sufficient differences between male and female and not all is understood (by a long shot) so I think we should recognise adults transitioning. I think we should do this while acknowledging the reality of their biological sex and that some services and capacities are defined by sex. (That’s awkward phrasing for womens sports but that’s what I meant by capacity)

The case of the Albanian sworn virgins in the northern, and extremely patriarchal part of that country is quite different.

The rights of women there have been almost nonexistent, and any woman who wished for more rights would have to become a sworn virgin. That was the only way she could inherit the family property, for instance, when the family was left without a male heir.

So the reasons for this phenomenon can be in something quite different than gender identity, perhaps a feminist desire to have a less limited life and more rights when the whole society was structured as a rigid patriarchy where women were pretty much property.

@nepeta for each of these examples you can debate the individual points and they are all fair points, but any basic logical approach shows that none of that is clear proof that there is no such thing as trans. Besides, it is also unclear that we can unlink sex from gender completely, which is the only world where the argument that you remove gender and trans doesn’t exist holds. We live here, now, and no one can say definitively there is no such thing as trans. I’m not going to repeat all my caveats from above about various drivers for being trans.

If we're going to discuss whether or not "there is no such thing as trans" we first need to have a definition of exactly what you mean by 'trans'. What is it?

Do we need that first? Or do you need to prove there’s actually no such thing as gender dysphoria? It’s easy to have glib answers but it’s not that black and white and in the meantime people get hurt (on both sides as it’s a vicious world).
I don’t think Helen Joyce should have said that even with the context added, it doesn’t make it all ok the way many people have said it does.

Do we need that first?

I don't know how we can have a discussion about something if we're not all clear about what we're discussing. What do you mean when you say someone is 'genuinely trans'?

I mean they firmly absolutely believe they should be the other gender and maybe there’s a reason for that, not just their imagination. I’m not an expert and neither are many of the others on this board. I’ve read and been on this board for a long time, and you can have a go at me all you want, but it won’t change that I’m a reasonable person who would be torn apart as transphobic by many people if I said to them what i think on these topics and I also think Helen Joyce just committed an own goal with that video.

It doesn’t matter what being trans is. The clip was offensive. It’s long enough that there should have been more clarification given around it. Painting trans people as difficult to accommodate and that being the reason we need less of them, it’s a bad take and an own goal.
I only arrived on this board around the time Karen White hit the news, so about four years ago, so I guess I can’t really be gender critical. No true Scotsman, eh?

The “gotcha” posts about there being so objectively definable thing as trans or gender identity spectacularly miss the point. It’s not about that. Of course we can’t define it objectively - it’s hardly a new or radical statement, it’s what GC feminists have been responding to TRAs who say TWAW for years.

But we do know that there is a group of people who identify as trans, whether we think that’s possible or not. Helen’s words were very unfortunate in that regard. She clearly means something by “transition”, whether medical or social and she’s saying these people are a problem, not because of their internal trauma (which I think is a valid point) but because of long term accommodations that need to be made by a “sane” society. You might personally think that’s fine and doesn’t matter but it’s generated total outrage and turns people off the women’s movement. And yeah, if you actually want to bring about meaningful change (which Helen clearly does because she says we need to tackle legislators rather than raising awareness with the general public), then you do have to be “nice” and you do have to play the game. A lot of people miss this point and think it’s just about making their friends or colleagues aware of the issue and getting angry (ie the comments that KJK “gets stuff done” whereas others try to be too nice). That’s wrong because politicians (other than maybe on the v far right) won’t touch KJK with a barge pole and it won’t lead to any legal changes (even if lots of people get pissed off). More moderate voices do have a chance though, which is why this is a shame.