So disgusted tonight

[Mollyollydolly]

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

But this is just confused. Someone yearning to be the opposite sex is in thrall to gender stereotypes. Otherwise yearning to be the opposite sex, for no reason whatsoever, is a mental health issue.

The gender critical position is that people are both in thrall to, and constrained by, gender stereotypes.

Exactly. The poster hasn't managed to explain why a male would have this mysterious, debatable, woman/female identity if it isn't about stereotypes of course it's about stereotypes

By the way, Renee mentions a statistic whereby 50% of transitioned people attempt suicide after transition.

Not social influence. Not transphobia "Biological. Because you're messing with biology" - Renee's words.

Rest if population Renee says is 0.6 %.

Well, it would be great to hear someone answer it. It seems to me that the whole premise of genderism and transgenderism 'makes sense' so long as you are careful not to ask one too many questions. When we look for definitions of the words used, it all seems to fall apart.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though, and look forward to hearing what ChristabelHolloways answer is to:

'what is it to feel like a woman'?

Or do you wish you had a penis and testicles? Do you hate looking at yourself in the mirror because you don't have broad shoulders and narrow hips? Do you loathe mestruating because it;s a monthly reminder of your sex? Do you wish you could grow a beard? Do you long to be accepted as a man by other men? Do you feel as if you are, actually, a man and your body betrays you? If so you have the gender man.

For much of my life since puberty, a lot of that resonates. I hate being female, I used to bind my chest and fantasise about slicing my breasts off.I was subsequently diagnosed with body dysmorphia...the cure for which according to multiple male psychiatrists is standing naked in front of a mirror telling myself I'm beautiful. In fact the last one made a point of calling me beautiful on a regular basis despite knowing how much it bothered me. However I'm self aware enough to know in my case it comes from a place of trauma and because of that I think your answer is far too simplistic. I grew up being called jailbait and Lolita by my father's squadron and by the age of 14 had more than three grown men follow me home from school to ask me out. The first time I was hit on sexually I was in my brownie uniform. The power imbalance (no one stood up for me possibly due to military hierarchy) and the sense of woman as lesser were clear even in my early teens. Things like that have a lasting effect. Thirty years ago I'd have jumped to at the opportunity to get out of the walking sex toy box and into the human one.

Look, I'm not expert here, but it's not that difficult to understand is it?

I'm not sure why you have such a blind spot when you claim to be "GC". Gender is a social construct which differs over space and time, so playing football in the US is a girl thing and in the U.K. a boy thing (soccer, and I've heard it used in transition stories both ways depending on the country). Gender identity ideology is entirely founded in sex stereotypes. There is no evidence that this personal "gender" is an innate quality, other than that a group of people heavily influenced by stereotyped views of male and female claim to have one. But that isn't enough, we all have to have one, don't we?

“Do you think/believe you are a woman? Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not? Are you reasonably happy with your body, especially the sexual parts of it? If so you have the gender woman”

I know I am a woman and that my sex is female because objectively I have a female body. I am unhappy with it. It is too short, fat, slow rapable used to bleed annoyingly and now in menopause causes me aches and pains.

I’m still female/a woman though. I recognise that those with similar bodies are female and those with cocks and balls are men.

This is biology. Just because we don’t like it does not mean it isn’t true.

I’m not thrilled with my body but it doesn’t cause me sex-based distress. My boobs are saggy (two kids, too much cake) but if they weren’t I’d be very happy with them. I’d like to be taller but not the size of a typical man.

So I get that gender dysphoria is a specific thing. It would be better labelled sex dysphoria. But be that as it may, having it just makes you someone who dislikes being the sex you are. Nothing to do with being the other one.

I don't believe I have used any stereotypes here. I'm not for a moment saying that woman gender identity includes anything stereotypically "feminine".

Thank you for answering.

If not using stereotypes, what are the markers of a female gender identity?

Do you think/believe you are a woman?

Yes because a woman is an adult human female and that's what I am.

Do you relate to other women as in some way like you, and in a way that men are not?

Yes I relate to other adult human females as having commonality with me biologically, whereas men do not share that biology.

How does anyone who isn't a woman know how it is to 'feel like' a woman? Other than various biological bodily processes, I don't think I have any clue what part of my thought processes/personality/subjective experience is 'like a woman'. Unless you want to reference various dubious & reductive stereotypes.

This is how I feel too.

And I appreciate posters who try to answer questions about this but fundamentally it all comes back to this.

And I haven't yet seen an answer that doesn't rely on stereotypes.

The previous poster said they hadn't relied on stereotypes but their answer was simply that someone feels their gender identity is 'woman', without explaining what that feeling is rooted in. It cannot be rooted in experience as a male bodied person cannot know what it feels like to have grown up as a girl and lived as a woman.

It isn't an answer to the question because an actual answer would have to rely on stereotypes if it can't rely on biology or demonstrable fact.

And I'm a bit sick of the whole 'don't you believe gay people are gay?' and 'if you support gay people why don't you support TWAW?' Etc. Being gay = being attracted to the opposite sex. A clear, defined fact.

Feeling like you are a woman = what exactly, without using stereotypes that don't even apply to all women?

I'm a woman. I don't like lots of things that are considered feminine. I like some things that are traditionally considered masculine. I am still a woman because whether or not I adhere to gender stereotypes doesn't change that fact.

If we are teaching people that if they tick more boxes in the stereotypes of the sex opposite to theirs, they are trans, we are doing them a disservice and not allowing them to be their whole, brilliant selves without needing to label themselves as the opposite sex.

The whole thing involving men who claim they are not men, that they "feel" they are a woman, is rooted in sexual fantasy, often encouraged by frequent or addictive viewing of specific "genres" of pornography. It is an expression of the sexual fetish that is autogynephilia. [Although we are not supposed to say "sexual fetish" anymore, we're told to say "paraphilia".

You know, the idea of yearning to be the opposite sex because that's definitely how you feel, think, are, in some metaphysical, indefinable way, might carry a little more weight, if the same people didn't threaten rape and murder at any women who deviates, even slightly, from their orders to capitulate to male dominance.

I mean, as the saying goes, I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

‘You know, the idea of yearning to be the opposite sex because that's definitely how you feel, think, are, in some metaphysical, indefinable way, might carry a little more weight...’

It will only ever carry weight with me in the same way that I respect anyone’s feelings. I will not accept the feeling as having any basis in truth until someone shows me some objective basis for it.

Quite. Yes that's neatly put.

And notice, too, that really there is no such thing as 'age identity' in that (purported) sense.

Likewise, there is no such thing as gender identity.

Notice the point here is not that some people may have gender identities while others don't. No, the fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as gender identity in anything like the required sense.

No-one - nobody at all - has a gender identity in that sense. We know that because there is no such thing, just as we know no-one has one of tabbycatstripy's age identities.

The whole trans edifice is built on sand. Tough for all you inhabitants of this edifice ... but you surely must have noticed the walls shaking and the floors trembling now and then. No? Surely?

I understand why posters on here are unhappy about the effect trans activists and the imposition of trans rights are having on sex-based female rights, on the medical transitioning of people under 18, on the destruction of women's sports and so on. I share these concerns.

What I don't share is the pervasive dislike, distrust and hostility towards trans people. Trans individuals exist; they have always existed; and to those who ask why I compare their situation with that of gay people, it's because the latter were also subject to the kind of hostility and hatred shown here, until very recently.

The vast majority of posters here appear to have no genuine interest in understanding trans people and why they are the way they are. I do have such an interest. I know trans people, I'm closely related to one, and I've sought to empathise with them and understand them as much as I think is possible for a non-trans person. Can you say the same?

But you don't need to do that. You already know you're right. There's no such thing as gender. Being trans can be cured, or it's a mental illness, or it's the result of trauma, or it's a fetish. Trans people "threaten rape and murder at any women who deviates, even slightly, from their orders to capitulate to male dominance." Oh and of course that's not transphobic at all.

It can't possibly be that some people genuinely are trans, and it's just the way they are, can it? Because that would be ... weird? Because that's not how you experience the world? Because .... I really have no idea why a lot of you think this way, but I don't like it.

Most of the responses to my last post have misrepresented it, misunderstood it (and I think my writing is pretty clear) or just ignored the points I made. Well, that's your right of course. But I can't be bothered to reply to you if you're going to do that.

I feel sad. I did think it would possible to find people who opposed the harm done to women's rights by extremist trans activists but didn't hate or fear ordinary trans people, who in general are as dismayed by what's happening as anyone else. I sure haven't found those people here.

Wish me luck as I continue the search elsewhere. Oh and P.s. I watched all of the Helen Joyce interview on Wine and Women, and what she said was transphobic. Which is where we all came in.

So, you're not able to answer the question, then?

'what is it to feel like a woman'?

Please have a go, at least? I had hoped you were in good faith. I would like to understand.

Nothing? 😢

Most of the responses to my last post have misrepresented it, misunderstood it (and I think my writing is pretty clear) or just ignored the points I made.

You didn't actually make any point, as people have painstakingly explained to you. You did not give a coherent definition of gender identity that doesn't have any relation to male/female stereotypes. You are clearly so deep into the ideology that you can't see it. What you are describing is a disembodied metaphysical sex consciousness essence. Why are you so sure that it exists, and yet you can't describe it? What does it feel like and how is it not just knowing which sex you are? You've presumed to inform us that we have a "gender identity". No. We know we are female. That's it.

Most of the responses to my last post have misrepresented it, misunderstood it (and I think my writing is pretty clear) or just ignored the points I made.

But you didn't answer the question, so how can you accuse people of not engaging in good faith really, can you?

I'll try again. Could you answer either of the following questions?

If not using stereotypes, what are the markers of a female gender identity?

Or

Feeling like you are a woman = what exactly, without using stereotypes that don't even apply to all women?

Being trans can be cured, or it's a mental illness, or it's the result of trauma, or it's a fetish.

Which of these categories do the trans people you know fit into? Or are there other categories as well?

It can't possibly be that some people genuinely are trans, and it's just the way they are, can it?

What does it mean to 'be trans'?

I watched all of the Helen Joyce interview on Wine and Women, and what she said was transphobic.

I've only watched about the first 20 minutes so far. What do you think about her comments about the homophobic parents who think 'better a sterile daughter than a gay son'?

What about her comments about the Dutch doctors who pioneered the 'Dutch protocol', who when asked whether their patients did well in later life just talked about how miserable their lives were pre-transition so they didn't have much expectation of happier lives later on for them?

I know 3 transpeople

One is a complete bastard who has male and female days , who has left his wife and kids,

One is a gentle soul who would never force her way into womens spaces

Abs one was a young girl , in whom I could see a lot of myself , whose transition was to me a complete failure of those around her to help her navigate a traumatic period of life. Trauma made worse because she could never be a gender conforming soul which was beyond the understanding of her family . She was an extremely bright young thing whose life will be harmed by the treatment she has received

So yes I know some and yes I have tried to understand

Can you say the same?

I have other stuff to concern myself with, frankly. Like women's rights. I don't feel that everyone's life has to revolve around trans ideology and that we must spend our lives endlessly striving to understand their personalities when many of them have not the slightest interest in understanding women's concerns. We have other priorities.

It seems to me that the whole premise of genderism and transgenderism 'makes sense' so long as you are careful not to ask one too many questions. When we look for definitions of the words used, it all seems to fall apart.

It does, doesn't it?

Honestly, Eresh. Every time.

What a lot of disingenuous crap. Nobody can answer the question, so instead they get all faux-indignant, accuse us all of being horrible, and flounce. EVERY TIME.

Pah.