So disgusted tonight

[Mollyollydolly]

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

I don't consider myself GC - I want to protect women's spaces and sport, but I respect people's chosen pronouns and would never go out of my way to call a trans woman a "man" (so I haven't found a kinship on MN), but if I did count myself GC, I'd be livid with HJ for what I agree with OJ are "chilling" comments (I don't agree with OJ on everything).

She represents any measured, thoughtful GC person horribly here, so of course OJ is going to amplify and widely share her awful words.

Nope, don't give a fuck about anyone's 'identity', until they try to impose their view of themselves on me.

But yes, there definitely should be no medical transition option for under 18s, in my current opinion, but let's see what the Cass report will recommend.

Also been thinking about that central tenet of gender ideology: that men and women are made. Which means, I suppose, that there is nothing essentially male or female about anyone’s psychology when they are born, but the manner in which one is treated by the world forms one into either a man or a woman.

To some extent that’s probably true (going back to what I said about ‘typical female socialisation’). If you are interrupted more often than listened to, if you are constantly expected to be kind and serve others, that will have some psychological effect.

But for that precise reason I don’t understand what is meant when an adult male says they have ‘always been a woman’. How can that be true, when they’ve always been treated like a man? If gender is constructed by external forces, how did they escape being ‘made’ into a man?

‘She represents any measured, thoughtful GC person horribly here, so of course OJ is going to amplify and widely share her awful words.’

Come on. Joyce is the definition of thoughtful. She just isn’t measuring out her words to serve your preferences.

Well, as far as I'm aware Kathleen Stock never misspoke, and is a most measured and considered GC speaker. Of course, that hasn't protected her from lies and accusations of transphobia from LOJ and co. LOJ is going to LOJ, your point?

Since many seem to have not seen the video or aren't able to, here's the full excerpt of the segment:

"We can't win this by saying there's 60 million people in this country and we've got to persuade all of them or a great majority of them, we've got to get through to the decision makers. And in the meantime, while we're trying to get through to the decision makers, we have to try to limit the harm, and that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition.

And that's for two reasons: one of them is that every one of those people is a person who's been damaged, but the second one is every one of those people is, basically - you know, a huge problem to the sane world, if you've got people, whether they're transitioned whether they're happily transitioned, whether they're unhappily transitioned, whether they're detransitioned, if you've got these people who've dissociated from their sex in some way, every one of those people is someone who needs special accommodation in a sane world where we re-acknowledge the truth of sex.

The people who've been damaged by it, the children have been put through this, those people deserve every accommodation we can possibly make, but every one of them is a difficulty. And I know that sounds heartless, I'm trying to say exactly the opposite of sounding heartless, I'm saying every one of those people for 50, 60, 70 years, is going to need things that the rest of us just don't need, because the rest of us are just our sex. So the fewer of those people there are, the better in the sane world that I hope we will reach."

Yes, any expression of GC thought is considered genocidal by these activists. You can be as ‘measured’ as you want but as soon as you say no, they lose their minds.

"Come on. Joyce is the definition of thoughtful."

Perhaps she is, to seasoned GCers who are regularly reading up on this topic. But to outside ears? When a more high profile voice like OJ shares a clip like this? Sounds horrific and won't win anyone over who isn't already firmly GC.

That's why I say she represents you poorly in this instance.

LK1972 Not got a clue what you're LOJing on about.

It's not good at all.

A lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots

‘When a more high profile voice like OJ shares a clip like this? Sounds horrific and won't win anyone over who isn't already firmly GC. That's why I say she represents you poorly in this instance.’

Yes, it was clumsily worded. Not ‘horrific’ if you know the context, but some will misinterpret it. No matter. In the long run biological sex isn’t going anywhere.

Tabby I disagree. Amongst my friendship group, we discuss women's sport, prisons etc and find recent developments extremely concerning. I suppose that's "GC thought." But I think Helen Joyce sounds like a bigot here who wants to eliminate trans people.

Thank you for posting that, idlemuse , it bears repeating.

What the trans ideologues appear oblivious to is that gender critical feminism, while centring women and girls, also prioritises safeguarding. Safeguarding for all vulnerable people.

By focusing on the prevention of harm to distressed people, Helen's statement emphasises compassion and safeguarding.

The "I disagree" was in response to "any expression of GC thought is considered genocidal"

But I realise now you might only mean to card- carrying "activists". Maybe true.

They are actively trying to equate GC feminists to fascists. And they also think fascists deserve to be physically attacked, or punched. And their theorists, like David Renton of the snitch variety, propagate the view that physically resisting 'fascists and white suprematists' is morally justified (I actually watched his interview on one of Allison's threads and was quite surprised it is not considered 'incitement to violence').

So, the logic is, punching GC people is justified, as they are fascists and white suprematists. So brave, much socialism. Punch women to destroy the patriarchy!

‘But I think Helen Joyce sounds like a bigot here who wants to eliminate trans people.’

What do you mean by ‘eliminate’? She doesn’t think transition is healthy or good. That isn’t eliminating people, is it?

LOJ-little Owen Jones, a populist and demagogue, spreading intolerance and encouraging divisions in our society as per usual. Left's Piers Morgan, that LOJ

@Nellle "But I think Helen Joyce sounds like a bigot here who wants to eliminate trans people."

1. The definition of bigot is below:

2. You clearly haven't read Helen's book or heard a word Helen has said elswhere. [All you have heard is a maliciously created clip taken out of its context from a one hour chat.]

I have posted the full quote above btw.

You clearly haven't read Helen's book or heard a word Helen has said elswhere.

Most people haven't, but over a million people have watched the video clip and that is a big problem.

"What do you mean by ‘eliminate’? She doesn’t think transition is healthy or good. That isn’t eliminating people, is it?"

I think her saying that she wants to keep the number down of the people transitioning (including "happily transitioned") makes it sound like she wants there to be fewer trans people. Her reasoning about transitioning not being healthy or good is not what I'm focusing on - she wants less of it.

Maud, no I haven't read HJ's work and that's exactly the point I made earlier - The vast majority of people who hear the clip OJ's sharing also haven't read her work and won't care to now. She's doing you no favours.

Heathers - yes, exactly.

@idlemuse "I have posted the full quote above btw."

Yes, I saw that. It clearly demonstrates there is no bigotry and nothing but concern and compassion for anyone who is dissociated from their natural sex, which clearly does present a serious social problem if the numbers of such people, especially children, continues to increase.

This is a new phenomenon. There has never been such a volume of people claiming to be dissociated from their natural sex before. Society needs to make arrangements to accommodate this in a way that avoids any possible adverse impacts on the majority who are not dissociated from their natural sex.

‘I think her saying that she wants to keep the number down of the people transitioning (including "happily transitioned") makes it sound like she wants there to be fewer trans people. Her reasoning about transitioning not being healthy or good is not what I'm focusing on - she wants less of it.’

But the reasoning is integral to her point. If transitioning is harmful (and it might be overall even if some or many people are happy as individuals), of course she wants less of it.

(I’m not relying on her being correct to make that argument. It’s enough that she thinks it’s correct.)

'Her reasoning about transitioning not being healthy or good is not what I'm focusing on'-yes, that's clear from your posts. Would you possibly focusing on her reasoning about transitioning, it may give you an insight in what other people on this board are saying and why? Or will that exposure to someone else's opinion taint you with 'bigotry'?