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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cycling reaches new low

129 replies

FemaleAndLearning · 03/06/2022 22:46

Friend shared this from a Women's Rights Network tweet
twitter.com/WomensRightsNet/status/1532804764664225792?t=3t37LIrWtiNxXb86BoQQ2A&s=19
So new categories Lightening and Thunder for those with a gender identity, meaning men in women's cycling. But if you are 'cis' you can't choose your category. Confused yes me too. Anyone got more info?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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BatDuck · 04/06/2022 11:36

You could make the argument like a PP has done that this is a private event so they can do what they like. But if a popular and fun event like this is allowed to enforce which category “cis” people have to ride in but trans people get free rein to go in any category they want, they’re actually discriminating against non trans people.
Thunder Crit also nicely shows what happens if you make all sport categories gender free - the people with male bodies will dominate: one, because they have male performance advantage and two, because only the female people that agree with the concept will take part. The others will self exclude.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 04/06/2022 11:41

And don't forget that many racers take part for the prize money, to fund ingoing training. This is, again, disadvantaging females, who now can't access the % if the funding pot they could a year ago.

This is affecting livelihoods too.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 04/06/2022 13:19

cyclepathic · 04/06/2022 09:04

Looking at this a different way, this isn't a British Cycling event. This is a private event that creates their own rules. Up to them if they want to alienate 51% of the population I guess.

And more importantly, I don't think this league nor the other one that also runs non-BC fixed crit races at HHV is a problem. In fact I think it's a good thing. It looks like EB and the other racer have targetted those races, and I hope more TW travel to compete as well. A league/category for TWs would be great, don't you think? Nobody is forcing the women to enter. If the women stop entering, that's fine. Then all the TWs could race each other, what's not to like about that?

Yes that means no category for women, however there are lots of other races out there, track and road and circuit. If anyone else wants to put on a private fixed crit race and make the categories by sex, they are welcome to.

Sometimes I think we need to step back and see things for what they are and how they are going and work with the flow rather than against it.

The organisers disagree with you.

Cycling reaches new low
FrippEnos · 04/06/2022 14:08

Interesting to see that the transwoman that says that they have no advantage
came first and another transwoman came second.

I would really like to see a mass boycott of these events.

puffyisgood · 04/06/2022 14:32

This reply has been deleted

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Forestgate · 04/06/2022 14:34

Dreikanter · 03/06/2022 23:05

Saw this earlier.

thundercrit.com/race-categories/

Therefore, we say goodbye to gendered race categories. The men’s race and women’s race are no more. Welcome to the new Thundercrit categories, which are based on the principle that the best and most fun competition is a fair and inclusive competition, where the performance level of the competitors in each category is similar to those around them.

Add in “cis” men and women can’t choose their category but trans and non-binary get their pick and you end up with 5 males taking the top 6 spots over the two categories.

Congratulations to top female Jo Smith.

What a joke. How do we stop this madness? Is there a petition?

TribunalBingo · 04/06/2022 14:38

I'm not a sports fan but I am big on fairness, and as such this pissesme right off

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 04/06/2022 15:12

I noticed that the female winner holding her baby had her child wearing rainbow leggings, so wonder if she is actually supportive of the set up of the race?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 04/06/2022 15:27

Sometimes a rainbow is just a decoration.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 04/06/2022 15:32

Sometimes it is a decoration, but in the context of this race I suspect it couldn’t possibly be.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 04/06/2022 15:47

Quite possibly, but I live in hope!🙃

Dinosaur975326788900864322456778899900754543 · 04/06/2022 15:52

They need three categories

  • male
  • other
  • female
Runningslow · 04/06/2022 16:49

cyclepathic · 04/06/2022 09:04

Looking at this a different way, this isn't a British Cycling event. This is a private event that creates their own rules. Up to them if they want to alienate 51% of the population I guess.

And more importantly, I don't think this league nor the other one that also runs non-BC fixed crit races at HHV is a problem. In fact I think it's a good thing. It looks like EB and the other racer have targetted those races, and I hope more TW travel to compete as well. A league/category for TWs would be great, don't you think? Nobody is forcing the women to enter. If the women stop entering, that's fine. Then all the TWs could race each other, what's not to like about that?

Yes that means no category for women, however there are lots of other races out there, track and road and circuit. If anyone else wants to put on a private fixed crit race and make the categories by sex, they are welcome to.

Sometimes I think we need to step back and see things for what they are and how they are going and work with the flow rather than against it.

This.
Realistically it’ll become a race for transwomen, but I doubt many women will be that upset for transwomen to have a race that doesn’t count for anything else if it keeps them happy and out of the serious competitions. Think of it as a mum’s race at sports day. At least it was obvious from the terms and conditions what sort of event it was going to be.
it’s also not a bad thing to show why transwomen need to be kept out of serious women’s competition - and demonstrates if so clearly when it’s not just one transwoman on the podium.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 04/06/2022 16:50

Can we now ignore the gay men who say it's straight men who cause the problems for women?

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 04/06/2022 16:54

Realistically it’ll become a race for transwomen, but I doubt many women will be that upset for transwomen to have a race that doesn’t count for anything else if it keeps them happy and out of the serious competitions.

Realistically, they have now races for men, and races for other men. Sure, they are a private group they can do what they like. But let's not pretend they haven't removed the women category.

Metacat · 04/06/2022 18:26

I seldom post, as I'm still processing the whole debate after discovering it about a year ago, and agree with much but not all of what I read here. And after everything I've learnt, I'm not sure why I'm choosing this instance out of so, so many others, to comment on! But I took a few minutes to read the link to the new policy, and was struck anew by how the way in which such decisions are so often presented as fundamentally progressive and praiseworthy when, in reality, any organisation taking this approach (see also toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc.) has made a value judgement in which they've determined that safety and fairness for females is secondary to validation of self-declared gender identities.

As is invariably the case (notwithstanding, in this instance, the brief reference to an imperfect solution at the end - itself somewhat undermined by the pre-emptive warning against transphobia), this difficult decision is marketed as a straightforwardly Good Thing. I know that, having made it, they can hardly acknowledge its flaws but, instead, need to 'sell' it. However, I really do find it disturbing to be continually reminded that such decisions to compromise women's hard won rights aren't just being made so easily, but being made with some fanfare, confidently celebrated as fundamentally morally superior to the alternatives. It's this, almost as much as such decisions themselves, that can make me feel strangely vulnerable.

Metacat · 04/06/2022 19:07

A thought experiment, for my own satisfaction as much as anything, as the thread's dying a death. Here's an imagined U-turn late in 2022 / my attempt to propose a solution I'd prefer to see. It took a bit of courage to post, and this, in itself, seems significant. Because my sense is that, where the current policy clearly and confidently assumes its own moral superiority in its explicit references to protecting gender non-conforming people, my alternative suggestion may be seen as controversial in its equally explicit defence of females' rights. The fact is that both versions favour one group over another, and both have the potential to distress the sidelined group. So why the probable gulf in popular perception?!

RACE CATEGORIES

In the past we’ve always strived for equality and to be one of the most open and inclusive races out there. Since the very beginning, we’ve offered equal prizes for the men and women’s race. We recognise that as society evolves, THIS SHOULD NOT IMPACT ON THESE FUNDAMENTAL VALUES and so in 2022 we RETURNED TO our ORIGINAL format.

SEX AND GENDER IDENTITY should never be discriminated against, and we aim to create an inclusive racing environment for all, and welcome BOTH SEXES AND GENDER IDENTITIES to our races.

We realised that GENDER-BASED racing categories are, REGRETTABLY, NOT fit for purpose. It shouldn’t be up to FEMALE-BODIED PEOPLE, who SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS DETERMINES BELONG IN A DIFFERENT CLASS OF PHYSICAL ABILITY TO MALE-BODIED PEOPLE, to face pressure to RACE AGAINST THOSE WITH AN INNATE ADVANTAGE, or else be excluded or face ACCUSATIONS OF BIGOTRY, by THEIR category being EXTENDED IN A WAY WHICH DISADVANTAGES THEM AND ARGUABLE HEIGHTENS THEIR RISK OF INJURY in the sport. It’s time the categories themselves to change back and become more inclusive.

Therefore, we say goodbye to gendered race categories BASED ON SELF-IDENTIFICATION. The THUNDER AND LIGHTNING races have been RADICALLY RE-THOUGHT. Welcome to the new MALE, NB AND TRANSWOMAN, AND FEMALE, NB AND TRANSMAN categories, which are based on the principle that the best and most fun competition is a fair, SAFE and inclusive competition, where the performance level of the competitors in each category is AUTOMATICALLY similar to those around them.

We have created two new race categories – AS ABOVE– that take the SCIENTIFICALLY DETERMINED physical performance of BIRTH SEX as the starting point of each, SO THAT those of similar ability AUTOMATICALLY race in that category, regardless of gender. It is a radical re-think of what a race could look like, celebrating the differences between riders BY ENABLING MEANINGFUL INCLUSION IN THE FORM OF MIXED-GENDER GROUPS, but STILL offering a level playing field in terms of competition.

Thunder Category. This category is for:

• MEN

• Non-binary gendered people WHOSE BIRTH SEX ALIGNS WITH MALES

• Trans women

Lightning Category. This category is for:

• WOMEN

• Non-binary gendered people whose BIRTH SEX aligns with FEMALES

• Trans men

Notes

NO ONE CAN choose their racing category AS THIS WOULD BE AN ARBITRARY BASIS FOR COMPETITION, AND DISCRIMINATORY WERE IT TO BE PERMITTED FOR ONE GORUP AND NOT FOR OTHERS.

We recognise that this new format IS MORE CLEAR, FAIR AND SAFE THAN OUR PREVIOUS SOLUTION, BUT ALSO MAY BE OF CONCERN TO SOME INDIVIDUALS, so if you’re confused please email us ([email protected]) and we will be very happy to EXPLAIN THE REASONING AND EVIDENCE-BASE BEHIND IT, AND WHY WE FEEL IT IS NOT INCOMPATIBLE WITH EMBRACING THE FULL INVOLVEMENT OF NON-GENDER-CONFORMING INDIVIDUALS IN OUR SPORT.

We may also contact riders to double check that they have selected the correct category.

We will not require any proof of medical treatment, AS THE CLARITY AND FAIRNESS OF OUR SYSTEM MAKES IT EASY TO ENSURE competitors select the category most appropriate for their performance.

Transphobic AND SEXIST behaviour will not be tolerated. ACCUSATIONS OF BIGOTRY IN THE FACE OF OUR ATTEMPTS TO BE FAIR AND RESPECTFUL TO ALL will not be tolerated.

However, we are open to constructive feedback. We don’t have all the answers and we recognise that this is not necessarily the perfect solution, so we are open to ideas and suggestions on how we can improve in the future.

A and B Subcategories

Within the Thunder and Lightning categories there will NO LONGER be a ‘A’ or ‘B’ level AS THIS WOULD UNDERMINE THE FAIRNESS of the final races in groups BY NECESSITATING SUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENTS REGARDING ABILITY IN PLACE OF
MORE OBJECTIVE MEASURES.

The qualifying races will BE ORGANISED AS EXPLAINED ABOVE, so by the time we get to the finals races you will be racing against people IN THE SAME PHYSICAL CLASS AS yourself.

Prizes

THIS WILL ALSO MEAN A RETURN TO OUR commitment to equal prizes. Prizes for the Thunder and Lightning categories will ONCE AGAIN REWARD INDIVIDUALS’ WHO EXCEL IN THEIR PHYSICAL CLASS , and will be provided by our generous sponsors.

BatDuck · 04/06/2022 20:06

You’re talking far too much sense @Metacat 😁

Metacat · 04/06/2022 20:31

😁

MagnoliaTaint · 04/06/2022 21:09

BatDuck · 04/06/2022 11:36

You could make the argument like a PP has done that this is a private event so they can do what they like. But if a popular and fun event like this is allowed to enforce which category “cis” people have to ride in but trans people get free rein to go in any category they want, they’re actually discriminating against non trans people.
Thunder Crit also nicely shows what happens if you make all sport categories gender free - the people with male bodies will dominate: one, because they have male performance advantage and two, because only the female people that agree with the concept will take part. The others will self exclude.

Are their rules not straight up discrimination on grounds of sex, as forbidden in the Equality Act?

BatDuck · 04/06/2022 21:48

Are their rules not straight up discrimination on grounds of sex, as forbidden in the Equality Act?

IANAL but yes, it looks like it

FrippEnos · 04/06/2022 21:51

MagnoliaTaint

I think (not sure) that they have got around the equality act by being a private race and allowing trans in both categories.

Although not allowing men and women to choose could be a stumbling block.

MagnoliaTaint · 04/06/2022 21:55

That's what I mean, if you are banning males but allowing females or vice versa you need to have an exemption under the EA. Otherwise it's straightforward discrimination.

Although IA very much NAL.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/06/2022 22:42

I would say it definitely meets the threshold for indirect sex discrimination

nepeta · 04/06/2022 22:52

Because there are now two finals in both the Thunder and the Lightning categories (finals A and B), a total of twelve racers won something (goods, mostly, but also small amounts of money).

Had Thunder and Lightning been divided on the basis of sex, six men and six women would have won something (placed first, second or third in the two finals for each main category).

But given the new inclusiveness, TEN men and TWO women won something! This is how fairness marches forwards.