Losing a friend to the ‘other side’

[Daffydaff]

Hello all. First time poster, and relative newcomer to this board. It was actually here, reading the thoughts of other women, that helped me to realise that my well-meaning "want to be on the right side of history / let's all be kind" thoughts on trans rights were becoming a little at odds with my feminist views, and I reached peak trans a while back.

So on to my post. I'm not sure what I want to say, really - maybe just to express my utter disappointment (and anger) that I lost a friend, a good friend of over 25 years, because of his myopic adherence to the TWAW and gender woo ideology, who closed his ears to what I was saying so absolutely that I'm still doing a double take days later.

His knee jerk reactions were just so... predictable: JKR is a transphobe. Not all women can have babies so what is a woman anyway. Safe spaces for women must include trans women because they are women. Just because something is legal (sex based rights) doesn't make it moral. Science is changing its opinion, sex doesn't matter.

It was my first real "discussion" on the matter (I use discussion in inverted commas because although I was happy to try and find some nuance I was getting nothing but sound bites back) but although I put some good points across I was just so shaky with sadness and lost some cohesion as he started dismissing my points.

The irony is that he is very vocal about being a feminist and anti MRA, but refused to acknowledge my experiences as a woman. When I spoke of the shared experiences of biological women, starting as girls and into adulthood, that trans women simply cannot understand, the oppressive but everyday sexism and misogyny that we often barely notice, so steeped in society it is... he said "not all women will experience that, does that make them less of a woman". Reader, it was at this point that I grew angry.

When I gave examples of stories that showed that at the very least a discussion should take place, over safeguarding, over the logical conclusion that if sex isn't real, then same sex attraction is transphobic, over a fundamental need for women
to be part of the discussion on losing rights that we have only just won, of AGP and self ID'ing for nefarious intentions, how women are just not the oppressors in this story... everything was just dismissed.

(He also brought up JKR's huge platform, suggesting she was punching down from her place of privilege. I pointed out that he had more privilege in his little finger as a white straight man than any woman, whatever her status might be now)

I also asked him that if he felt transwomen should be allowed into women only spaces such as a rape survivor centre, then surely he would agree that women should be able to attend groups just for trans women (pointing out how unhelpful this would be to both groups). His response was "I can't police that" despite the fact that he IS policing the former viewpoint! The mental gymnastics was baffling.

I ended the friendship - which is unlike me, as I am able to remain friends with people from all stripes - saying that we would not be compatible any more. If he was happy to label me as a transphobe then I could label him as a misogynist and homophobe, because... labels 🙄

Anyway, I think I just want support, and to know that I'm not the bad guy here, and to hear words of wisdom. Or indeed point out any flaws in my thinking - I'm still learning. I don't believe the two things need to be mutually exclusive - I don't want discrimination against trans people, in work, housing, society etc... but I also don't want women to diminished and erased.

Thanks for reading.

It's not transgender people or their rights that is the problem for me: It is this total re-engineering of all societies that is demanded as part of the bundle of those rights.

This.

I have no problem with people believing that they have a particular identity.

But when you call that identity "woman", despite being male, you are taking the only word that exists in the English language for "female people" and redefining it.

That means you are also redefining everyone else in that group.

It means they no longer have a word to describe themselves which means, exclusively "female people" and is not also being used to describe male people.

And when you then say that because your identity is "woman" you should be allowed to compete in women's sports, or be housed in a women's prison, or join a women-only group, you are redefining women against their will and imposing your identity on them.

Now we have Stella Creasy claiming that "a trans woman is an adult human female", meaning that the word "female" is also in the process of being redefined to include "male".

That's why I now feel that, despite my wish to be kind to people who genuinely suffer from dysphoria, I need to push back on things like pronouns.

Because it's no longer about being polite and kind, is it?

It's about whether we as a group have the right to define ourselves as a biological sex class and not a gender identity, and whether people in that biological sex class have a right to any spaces and sporting categories of our own.

I believe we do, and should have, that right. And we need to start asserting it, otherwise it will be lost forever.

Any political party who thinks I am "transphobic" for not wanting to be redefined in this way, and not wanting to give up my sex based rights, will not be getting my vote. And I don't care how bad the Tories are.

Hello. I'm resurrecting this thread because, well, I've been an arse. Not sure what I'm after, really. Somewhere to vent, more than anything. Maybe some reassurance that I'm not a bigot? (Although isn't there a saying, somewhere, that if you have to question if you're something, you probably are? That's a depressing thought. But he's got me all confused again).

I posted about me losing my friend over his TWAW myopia two years ago, and was ultimately accepting of the situation, thanks to some wise words on the above post. In that time I've been on this board (not contributing, alas! But learning so much from some of you wonderful ladies) and have gained more knowledge / coherence in my stance. I have also gone and lost another mutual friend to this idiocy, the irony being he now goes by they/them but he had a reputation in his 20s for chasing anything in a skirt (including me) and most certainly knew what a woman was then.

But a few weeks ago I had such an overwhelming pang of nostalgia for this first friend that I reached out. I don't know why, perhaps I thought in this time he had softened? I said that we wouldn't change each others minds, that this is complicated, but could there be common ground, and that I missed his friendship. His response was to say it wasn't complicated, and basically called me a bigot again, albeit in a 'gentle' way. He also asked me not to contact him unless I had changed my mind, because of 'the pain'.

I'm now left temporarily hurt, yet again, but also absofuckinglutely raging at the arrogance of being called a bigot with no right to reply (unless I go against his wishes). It's insane. I know he will be thinking of this in black and white (left Vs right, most likely) and part of me wants to point out that he's living in a bubble... to critically engage with some of my points... to challenge himself just as I did and do. In our previous argument in 2022 I had called him a misogynist, which he brought up in this latest message, asking why would I want to be friends with one. I wanted to correct this too - explain that just like some of my views are unfortunately shared by people I have nothing in common with politically or morally, his views are also shared by misogynists and MRAs. I'm still left wing! He's only ever known me as empathetic, open and friendly to all. And I mean all. I'm his friend that jumped into a canal to save a pigeon for fuck's sake. It's like... if only I can reach a small part of him that is open to change, perhaps find an analogy that works, to explain that it IS complicated, to ask him to follow a few trans or detransitioning people who express opposing views to his (surely they can't be transphobic?!). But it's pointless isn't it. I am a bigot, and he, man that he is, is arbiter of all things moral and right. That is my legacy with him. He will not engage. There is no point me trying again, right?

Ugh.

Thanks for reading.

I was about to say the same thing. I've come across several men whose behaviour is exactly like this. Start off as appearing considerate and understanding but then show a very unpleasant bitterness and hatred of women who for example at work are senior to them. Actually makes my skin crawl.

Just realised this is a very old thread. Sorry op just read your latest message. I think you've answered your own question.

I wouldn't bother trying to engage again. It's horrible to lose a friend, but someone who is prepared to overlook all the other aspects of your friendship to reject you over a single disagreement is probably not worth having.

Sensible people value friendships with people who don't necessarily agree with them. It's one of the ways we grow and learn.

I think you just have to close the door on him OP. I'm not sure I could ever be friends with a man who dismissed my legitimate fears and concerns out of hand. Why would you want to be?

I've cut contact with several friends over this issue. All female. One with a trans "son" who my heart felt for, I just found it too difficult to watch this poor kid try to raise money for a mastectomy. I quietly drifted away and have no idea now what stage she's at.

One an academic in a university who parroted the mantra TWAW in the same breath as admitting how uncomfortable she was at finding a male colleague in a dress in the female toilets at work. But it was right and proper and she would work on her discomfort because the poor soul, a 55 year old married father, was on a "wonderful journey of self discovery, and should be supported".

It didn't even occur to her that a sexual abuse victim may have an even stronger reason to be uncomfortable. Didn't occur to her that this woman would have NOWHERE to go and pee if this male was now in there.
Nor did she think of his wife and kids and how they might feel.

Self righteousness shone out of every pore, and she smugly told me that she'd shown her new bestie how to put on lippy properly.

I lost my eyeballs in the back of my head and cut contact after she dismissed my concerns.

He's not your friend nor has he ever been.

If he was he'd respect you and listen to you and value you rather than dropping you like a hot potato and being coercive and abusive.

I didn't realise the original post was an old one either - just goes to show how resilient these attiudes are, and I'm so sorry they've come around to hurt you all over again, OP. It's awful to be caught between feeling affection for someone and realising that on a very fundamental point, you are light-years apart. There's no way round it.
I hope you feel supported by coming on here again, and hopefully getting another round of from MNers.

if you want to have the last word, I’d reply and say ‘yes, you’re absolutely right, I’ve realised that you calling me a bigot over this shows your dismissive attitude towards women is too much for me to overcome and is no basis for a friendship. Sorry to have bothered you again. My nostalgia got the better of me’

That's sad OP.
You made yourself vulnerable in contacting him but he didn't have the empathy to respond in kind - even if his answer was a no. That really tells you everything you need to know.

Sorry you went through this OP. He's in a cult. He can't allow himself outside friends or debate or thought otherwise he might start to question its central tenets. He has to keep himself pure. It is very much his loss. I'm afraid you need to accept this for as long as the cult endures.

Thanks everyone. I needed a little hand hold. I don't have any friends who feel as I do, not enough to rant to anyway, so I just felt lonely in my beliefs and wanted to reconnect with some normal people!

You're all right, of course. I feel like an idiot for having thought he might have felt the same. But also sorry for him. He (and the other people that I know who subscribe to this ideology - all men, come to think of it, my female friends are mainly 'be kind') are all so pseudo intellectual and worthy and righteous, wallowing in their confidence that they are just right, but can't raise their curiosity enough to consider they may be ever so slightly wrong. It IS a cult, isn't it.

The other 'friend' who I also lost (the one who chased alllll the women) I was less upset by. He had reached out upon hearing of my disagreement with said mutual friend, I knew he would be the same TWAW but I didn't modify my thoughts for him, as much as I wanted to (the female urge for diplomacy was strong). However, we both asked one another to consider each other's points, and I thought that maybe he would have the courage to actually do this. Nope. He shared a video about a trans woman speaking of trans misogyny. That was it. I replied with a detailed, calm and reasonable point by point alternative view of the main arguments. I didn't hear from him for nearly a year so responded again, making a joke about being bored of waiting for him, another reasoned plea for common sense, and he blocked me. It really is true that no platforming is because they don't have the ability to actually think critically, they can't have anyone challenge them or they'll spontaneously combust.

I'm yet to decide whether to respond to him, I liked the suggestion above, to get my back some control perhaps (going out on my terms, not his!) but equally he isn't worth it.

Thanks again all.

He is a misogynist OP, and with your tales of his earlier womanising almost certainly always was.

If he sees no reason why women should have sex based language to talk about themselves, their lives, their needs and their biology it is because of rule 3.

1. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

If he sees no threat to women's rights from redefining the word women as an ineffable feminine mystique any human may or may not have it is because of rule 14

14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

If he sees women who complain as hateful bigots it is because of rules 2 & 7

1. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
2. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.

You just need to let him go I'm afraid with the knowledge that is is not and never was the friend to you you thought he was.

meant to pop this in there too
https://4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/

Do you want to be friends with anyone who has this level of contempt for you?

I expect my friends to know and understand I'm a reasonable person and if I'm saying something like disagree with like this, I'm going to have a bloody good reason even if they disagree with me.

Hi OP

His response was to say it wasn't complicated, and basically called me a bigot again, albeit in a 'gentle' way.

He’s right. His worldview isn’t complicated. His worldview is this…there are two reproductive sex classes: the reproductive sex class “the boss class” (of which he is a member); and the reproductive sex class “shut up and do as you’re told” (of which you are a member). Male people who self describe as a member of the opposite sex are male therefore, in this man’s worldview, they should get what they want at all times and women should shut up about it and do as they are told.

The other thing which isn’t complicated is: who and what he is. He is a male sexual entitlement activist. He’s not unique in that: many men are. He is at liberty to conduct himself as a men’s sexual entitlement activist. And you are at liberty to correctly identify him for what he is.

He is a man who does not believe that women have a right to privacy and dignity when in a state of undress. He is not worth your time or your headspace.

On the plus side, you’re not the one who’s stuck with being married to him, so you can be thankful for that. Just imagine what your friend has to put up with, living with him.

And there’s this article OP if you haven’t seen it already.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-sadness-of-sceptical-man/

I'd just reply with the Victoria Smith article alongside @IWilloBeACervix 's response.

The arrogance to treat you this way when it's not his spaces that are being taken away. Wanker.

You deserve better friends.

I had a similar argument with a male friend I'd known for over 40 years. I tried to explain how women want and need their own spaces, asked him to tell me why safeguarding was set up in the first place and he just shrugged and dismissed everything I said.

If someone is so dismissive about the safety of women and girls then I cannot trust that person and, if I can't trust that person, then I can't be friends with them.

I do see where you’re coming from, so have a hug.

A few years back a bunch of friends dumped me from the friendship group, I’m not really sure why but I think differing views over Covid restrictions were the main driver. One - the one with whom I’d been closest - was utterly horrible to me on several occasions when with the others, I think she felt the need to prove herself in some way.

I was devastated and I still miss her, despite how awful she was to me. Sometimes I wonder about getting in touch because that’s how much I miss her. But I know I can never trust her again because she will throw me under the bus when it suits her.

You tried and it’s only natural to miss those who were once important to us. But he’s shown who he really is and you’re worth more than begging for an ersatz friendship with this pathetic little man

The prison analogy is sometimes a good one with men like this. They need to think about how they'd feel if they were in prison surrounded by men bigger and more powerful than them, who are often believed over them and who are responsible for 90 per cent of all violent and sexual crime. Additionally these types of people are those who have routinely sexually harassed them since puberty. How comfortable would they feel? How trusting would they be prepared to be?

I'm sorry you lost a friendship you valued OP; it isn't a nice feeling but there are other people like you out there. Do you work in a profession with a SEEN, or a local GC group? Might help you feel less alone and more positive - and mourn the loss of irretrievable friendships less.

Totally agree with all of this. I'm glad I posted, yet again your words just gave me a bit of a kick up the bum. He isn't worth my time. He was never a true friend. I now recall a few instances in our past where he would condescendingly opine on other women and how feminist he deemed them to be. He classes himself as a feminist ally. Could never put my finger on why this didn't ring true. Now I know.

I still might reply to him, only to take back a bit of control, not because it'll change his mind. Screw hjm, that he gets to tell me I'm a bigot and I can't respond. (But equally maybe I can't be bothered to do this and that's ok too).

Oh, and someone asked me above about meeting other GC women - I actually met someone in my new home town (recently moved) who is. I saw a social media post that hinted at her views, I messaged her to delicately ask, and hurrah, yes she is. So one friend is out, another potential and more compatible friend is on the horizon.

Thanks again.

In my experience from various discussions over the years, for men especially who just don't get it (usually younger men), it's best to find an example that directly effects them.

For example I spent about 18 months on a Discord server which was mostly young men and about 10-20% women. I was one of the oldest there but never let on. We had a debate room within the server where people could go to hash out an issue with another person under the supervision of a mod to keep it on topic and civil. I found in a debate with a guy in his mid/late 20s on this issue, that when I described a situation where his girlfriend was in a coma from a car accident and could not speak or defend herself, would he want her on an all female ward with all female nurses or not? If not why not? This finally put a crack in his armour which may not have totally convinced him of the rest of a GC POV, but at least showed him it was illogical and could be dangerous to women HE KNEW. Also we had an audience of the rest of the server who were listening in, so you never know who else in the room may start to question their assumptions.

People are generally narcissistic and self interested so you need to think of a way to show how this affects them and those they love as they usually could care less about women, especially older women. They don't realize how misogynistic they are of course.

So I generally take a Socratic line and find out about them and their concerns and find a link to their own lives/experience. Rather than be adversarial, I try and throw out examples and questions to get them thinking. This is after many years of trial and error (I have been in this fight since 2015) and realizing how few people can be convinced on the spot. It's better to give a good example of how their theories could backfire on themselves or someone they love.

I have taught myself to stay calm and not feed into any of their stereotypes of people on the opposite side being extremists or emotional and illogical. Don't rise to any bait but stick to logical, obvious examples.

OP, you're better off without him. You've let the dust settle and held out an olive branch which he has unreasonably rejected.

Grown ups should be able to maintain friendships with people they disagree with, even massively so. This person is on a state of arrested development, he hasn't learnt and grown that we live in a plurality of perceptions and people aren't automatically 'bad' or 'good' for having a different political view.

I watched the last leg for the first time in a long time, how it has lost it's way. They were taking the piss out of people they deemed 'not woke' and outwardly calling them 'far right' for any disagreement with them. Grown men with the reasoning of a bunch of silly school kids.

This is where your friend is at, he is enjoying his moral high ground over you and of course it costs him nothing.