Losing a friend to the ‘other side’

[Daffydaff]

Hello all. First time poster, and relative newcomer to this board. It was actually here, reading the thoughts of other women, that helped me to realise that my well-meaning "want to be on the right side of history / let's all be kind" thoughts on trans rights were becoming a little at odds with my feminist views, and I reached peak trans a while back.

So on to my post. I'm not sure what I want to say, really - maybe just to express my utter disappointment (and anger) that I lost a friend, a good friend of over 25 years, because of his myopic adherence to the TWAW and gender woo ideology, who closed his ears to what I was saying so absolutely that I'm still doing a double take days later.

His knee jerk reactions were just so... predictable: JKR is a transphobe. Not all women can have babies so what is a woman anyway. Safe spaces for women must include trans women because they are women. Just because something is legal (sex based rights) doesn't make it moral. Science is changing its opinion, sex doesn't matter.

It was my first real "discussion" on the matter (I use discussion in inverted commas because although I was happy to try and find some nuance I was getting nothing but sound bites back) but although I put some good points across I was just so shaky with sadness and lost some cohesion as he started dismissing my points.

The irony is that he is very vocal about being a feminist and anti MRA, but refused to acknowledge my experiences as a woman. When I spoke of the shared experiences of biological women, starting as girls and into adulthood, that trans women simply cannot understand, the oppressive but everyday sexism and misogyny that we often barely notice, so steeped in society it is... he said "not all women will experience that, does that make them less of a woman". Reader, it was at this point that I grew angry.

When I gave examples of stories that showed that at the very least a discussion should take place, over safeguarding, over the logical conclusion that if sex isn't real, then same sex attraction is transphobic, over a fundamental need for women
to be part of the discussion on losing rights that we have only just won, of AGP and self ID'ing for nefarious intentions, how women are just not the oppressors in this story... everything was just dismissed.

(He also brought up JKR's huge platform, suggesting she was punching down from her place of privilege. I pointed out that he had more privilege in his little finger as a white straight man than any woman, whatever her status might be now)

I also asked him that if he felt transwomen should be allowed into women only spaces such as a rape survivor centre, then surely he would agree that women should be able to attend groups just for trans women (pointing out how unhelpful this would be to both groups). His response was "I can't police that" despite the fact that he IS policing the former viewpoint! The mental gymnastics was baffling.

I ended the friendship - which is unlike me, as I am able to remain friends with people from all stripes - saying that we would not be compatible any more. If he was happy to label me as a transphobe then I could label him as a misogynist and homophobe, because... labels 🙄

Anyway, I think I just want support, and to know that I'm not the bad guy here, and to hear words of wisdom. Or indeed point out any flaws in my thinking - I'm still learning. I don't believe the two things need to be mutually exclusive - I don't want discrimination against trans people, in work, housing, society etc... but I also don't want women to diminished and erased.

Thanks for reading.

In my experience (I am old), middle aged white males have never accepted or forgiven the fact that they are now expected to share their place at the table with women (though on the whole they still retain the prime spots). There is massive resentment underneath which the trans debate offers an opportunity for them to release in a ‘valid’ manner. It is, quite simply, ‘You made us budge up for you, now see how you like it’. Disguised, of course, as ‘kindness’

So sorry you had this experience. It totally sucks for you /hug

You are not wrong, you are not crazy.

Sounds more like a lucky escape than a loss op.

Men know exactly what other men are like. Those who go along with the mantras and witch hunts usually have skin in the game in one way or another.
Now they can air their woman hate publicly and get applauded for it.

It costs them nothing.

I have only lost one proper friend, who was one of the smartest (I thought!) woman I knew, and some FB contacts.

Everyone else I know thinks it's all batshit.

Phobiaphobic · Today 10:37

Sorry this happened, OP. I had a similar experience recently, only with a female friend. Despite her intelligence and education, she'd been utterly brainwashed on this issue. Her wilful ignorance of the most basic facts around gender ideology and its impact on society and women's rights and language was astounding.

Interestingly it made me want to abandon the friendship. All along I've been worried people will reject me as a terf, but I've come to the point that I don't really want to put any effort into a relationship where someone is so doggedly indifferent to the obvious clash between trans ideology and women's rights. I'm happy to disagree with people on most things, but this feels like an existential threat. Some elephants in the room take up all the space.

It seems to me that in order to buy into the Stonewall position 100% you have to be completely comfortable with -

(1) Adult human females having no right to be recognised as a group separate from males, and therefore can never associate as a group or assert, let alone have, rights as a group.

(2) Sexual orientation is not a thing. Everyone is open to fucking anyone (in theory) and the only legitimate reason to dismiss an entire group of people from your dating pool is if they claim to have a gender identity which you claim not to be attracted to.

(3) People should be forced to deny their own reality, despite their reality being objectively real, and despite the denial of reality being something that supports an ideology that they might hate. Their language should be forced on the back of this reality denial.

(4) Setting children down a pathway that tends to lead to sterilzation, genital mutliation, loss of sexual function, life-long medicalisation, and nasty side effects is absolutely 100% fine, even though we can;t agree that being trans is a medical issue and we have no evidence that if it is a medical issue it is an effective treatment.

I am sorely tempted to say that any one of these viewpoints on it's own is much more repellent than - say - an old-school 1970s landlord having a sign saying "no blacks, no dogs, no irish". Taken together and the whole package is so far beyond the pale it's hard to know where to start (which is part of the problem in arguing against it).

I'm not going to bring Hitler into this, but given a choice between Mussolini and Nancy Kelly as PM I fear I would not be able to vote for the UKs second female PM.

"The irony is that he is very vocal about being a feminist and anti MRA, but refused to acknowledge my experiences as a woman."

This, sadly, did not surprise me. Hypocrites the world over are always loudly proclaiming how they are the bestest, the purest, the absolute epitome of goodness. Well, fashionable 'goodness' anyway. I have long found someone being 'very vocal' a bit of a warning sign (no matter what they are vocal about). I have rarely been wrong to heed that warning.

The fact is that his self-identification as a feminist was as much of an illusion as every other self-identification. He might want to be a feminist (he might only wish to appear to be a feminist) but he has just demonstrated clearly that his feminism is skin-deep at best, which is why he's found it so easy to replace it with the latest 'fashionable' cause of transactivism. Which has the added bonus of being able to talk down to those pesky females. At heart, he just doesn't see women as his equals.

Sorry this happened, OP. I had a similar experience recently, only with a female friend. Despite her intelligence and education, she'd been utterly brainwashed on this issue. Her wilful ignorance of the most basic facts around gender ideology and its impact on society and women's rights and language was astounding.

Same. Though my friend did understand some of the issues, but suddenly went full on TWAW, I think because it was personally easier. But she also seemed to completely believe in it, or said she did. I found that even more disturbing than if she’d always been that way, it did feel almost “born again”. It was all “I’ve realised I should embrace everyone for who they say they are,” and “now I can come out and say TWAW and it feels good” rather than any kind of rationale. And of course she had loads of people patting her on the back for it.

I think wilfull ignorance is a good way of putting it. They don't want to hear anything that disturbs their mental map. I think maybe that is why there is so much craziness right now (see Stella Creasy) because they are being forced to confront the problems and they don't like it.

I came across an Andrea Dworkin quote -

Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society and all personal relationships.

It chimes to me with your friend who went "full on TWAW, I think because it was personally easier", cocoapopfan. It is an agony to be aware of detransitioners, and women in prisons, and girls with autism wanting double mastectomies; and some people cannot face that reality and retreat into comfortable fantasy as your friend has done.😧

I have come to the conclusion that these woke bros are just old school misogynists at heart, that they previously felt unable to express their true contempt for women because it didn't fit with their "but I'm a nice guy!" image, and are delighted to be able to do so now under the pretence that they are being progressive and the women seeking to defend their own rights are the bigots.

Sadly true about a lot of men.

One of the things that made me feel better about all of this was to realize that people who spout this stuff are (usually) not actually baddies who all along have been hiding their misogyny. If you thought they were nice people, you were probably right.

More often, they are limited thinkers who have enough education that you didn't realize that fact. They say the right things, and sound right, but to a large degree, they are spouting what they hear from their prefered political tribe, and they don't have much ability to engage in internal diologue or challenge about their own ideas.

It can be a bit disconcerting to realize how many people that applies to. Requires a bit of a rethink.

But part of the problem with things like #nodebate, or the tendency these days to need to be so careful about articulating any controversial idea publicly so that often people just keep quiet to avoid fuss, is that people like that don't get to hear these ideas articulated or disgussed in the public dscource. And because they don't have that internal voice, that means they hear it nowhere.

I’ve lost two real life friends to this. Coincidentally, they were both diagnosed with BPD a few years previously. They were my only friends who were vehemently TWAW. Everyone else I know either thinks TWATW or that “we should just be kind” and not have any further opinion on the matter.

Hi OP - another poster here whose been there and done that....

I'm not sad about losing the friendship however, I am sad that I misjudged who this person was.

My own experience sounds broadly similar, with a reliance on stock phrases and claims of bigotry that became increasingly more vitriolic as I challenged them.

I pretty quickly came to the conclusion that this wasn't a topic this person had bothered to understand in any depth and having no rational responses to my rebuttals simply resorted to mud slinging rather than admit they had been duped by Stonewall et al and/or admit that they were consciously or subconsciously attracted to a deeply misogynistic ideology that furthermore presented a serious safeguarding and health risk to children.

There is definitely a "type" this movement captures in men. Left wing, fully paid up members of the Owen Jones fan club who think they are clever, articulate and progressive - yet get most of their "intellectual" views from Twitter and get a kick out of denigrating anyone who doesn't subscribe to any aspect of their bro-woke orthodoxy whilst preaching inclusion, "feminism" and fighting poverty by means of SM posts on their latest thousand pound phone - basically insecure candle snuffers who make themselves feel better by actively seeking to reduce the light generated by other people to make themselves appear brighter (in both the intellectual and social senses).

OP I had a very similar conversation with a family member just days ago, and I am still bemused & baffled by the willful ignorance of someone who, pretty much, puts his fingers in his ears and says "la, la, la" and has the gall to say I shouldn't care, have an opinion or "talk animatedly" about this subject. It's going to make discussing our favorite topics of religion and politics difficult, and frankly I'm not going to stop talking about it. Animatedly or otherwise!

Men have the absolutely luxury of not giving a goddamned shit about women's rights. And they would rather we didn't talk about them either. Screw that. Keep going, talking and you are definitely not the only one who has had the pleasure of a male ignoramus try to shut you up.

@RubyTrees I'm sorry to hear that. Must be really hard when it's a sibling or close relative.

Thanks again, everyone. Have just had time to read the thread properly, and I feel reassured. I appreciate all your words. And my sympathies too, for everyone who has had a similar experience.

Some good points raised too - I’d have been interested in his thoughts on dating a trans woman, although he’d probably have been disingenuously ‘ok’ with it in theory just to prove a point.

I broached it with another friend today (I’m on a roll!) and she just quietly pointed out that this is simply an extension of male privilege that has always shouted down to women… and the fact that “trans men are men” doesn’t quite have the same vitriolic ring to it is because ultimately trans men still have the ‘handicap’ of female biology and misogyny.

And yes, @phobiaphobic and others, I have since come to the conclusion that he can fuck the fuck off, I’m happy to discard him, and others, if they refuse to engage. I reject my initial sadness! This is too important. I am not some faceless ‘TERF’ who he can “slam” with some perceived righteous argument on social media and then feel good about it. I was a friend, with a life full of experiences and empathy. And his brand of feminism does not trump mine.

The sadness is leaving me, leaving in its wake an anger crystallising into cohesive thoughts again.

@GCRich - this is actually a great point. There were so many strands that it became convoluted, and I ended up sounding more and more confused… “but what about this! And what about that!” - trying to throw too many concerns into the mix. But that’s the issue, is that there ARE so many concerns… does he really not think any of them might be right?

Thanks @Phobiaphobic. My sister is highly regarded by everyone in our extended family due to her educational and professional achievements. To find out that she doesn't believe biological facts or understand why women need single-sex spaces, and that she's very much into gender ideology was pretty shocking to me.

I'm so sorry.

He's adopted the framework of the hierarchy of privilege (my terminology) and its impossible to have a discussion who sees the debate through this lens.

I have a friend who seems to see it the same way which threw me (a few years ago) and I've not broached it since (although she appreciates discussion and is best mates with a Tory so can see through different opinions and beliefs.)

she's too far away for me to discuss with her much anyway. But I grappled with her comments if "minority groups" and "checking privilege" and her immediate comparison with people who experience racism for a number of years.

Privilege is contextual and subjective. I work in areas where the most "under privileged" are white and mostly the young males. They're the majority. This doesn't dismiss facts around racism nor the fact that racism is common in these communities. Frameworks of "privilege" don't help the argument.

Safeguarding recognises needs based on context. Transmen still have the vulnerabilities women have due to their sex. They don't magically trade that in. There's always so much focus on trans women and what a woman is; turn the tables and look through a different lens.

I also find that arguing for the rights of trans people in the context of correct treatment (ie not medical) given the number of detransitioners now speaking out is useful.

I also believe it's the biggest medical negligence disaster we've ever seen.

This is a good article

www.genderdysphoriaalliance.com/post/meet-scott-newgent

Honestly, it's no loss to you. A man like that can be no friend to a woman. At least you know now who he really is. I wouldn't even look back.

Ah, the old "not all women can have children therefore being female has nothing to do with womanhood" trope.

I always try to be gentle when I argue with other people. But really, people who are too dumb to understand that a woman who has a health condition that means she can't bear children, is not the same as a perfectly healthy male who can't bear children (because he is male!), I just have no patience with them.

I had a very similar conversation with a male relative whose wife is very TWAW. He was extremely dismissive of many things I had to say but I did manage to get a few points in which he agreed with and started seeing a different point of view which I felt was a step in the right direction.

This blind believing of untruths is ultimately damaging women's health and given his wife's many chronic gynaecological health complaints, I was surprised she held such a staunch position in her views. She works in social care so I wonder if it is drilled in there?

@WhereYouLeftIt Thank you, your comment has made me think. I feel my friend constructed a fantasy, but my impression is not that she can’t bear to accept the existence of misogyny but that she wants acceptance by those most important to her. I’d classify her more as throwing women under the bus for the sake of a luxury belief, which is why I find it so disturbing because this was a friend I really respected.

But you may be right, and maybe she is just not prepared to see that this movement, which is presented as “being kind”, etc has been coopted by something else. Until a few years ago, I assumed that in the developed world anyhow, women were “almost there” in terms of equality. Maybe it is hard to accept that the world has turned out to be more hostile than many of us assumed, and that’s one reason why women like her sign up to the gender-woo. I certainly think a lot of young people going along with this ideology are part of a utopian mindset which just won’t “see” the potential problems.

"Privilege is contextual and subjective. I work in areas where the most "under privileged" are white and mostly the young males. They're the majority. This doesn't dismiss facts around racism nor the fact that racism is common in these communities. Frameworks of "privilege" don't help the argument."

Surely "privilege" is complex and is needed. White males are relatively privileged compare to non-white people and females. BUT, in the context of, say, a classroom and performance it might be the case that a girl with parents of Chinese origin might be relatively privileged - she has greater support and expectations at home, and the teaching is geared towards a way of learning that typically favours girls.

A typical older trans woman might be relatively underprivileged due to being trans (albeit they almost certainly did not need to come out as trans and I do find it hard to accept the concept into identifying into under-privilege), but very privileged due to sex, race, class, education, profession, income, wealth and health.

TLDR - I think privilege is very important, but it is important not to oversimplify things!

That is a good list, and all of them are linked by the central tenet of the gender identity belief system:

That an abstract gender identity (which is both innate but can be completely fluid) exists in every single human being, and that this new belief should replace biological sex in everything.

It's not transgender people or their rights that is the problem for me: It is this total re-engineering of all societies that is demanded as part of the bundle of those rights.