Losing a friend to the ‘other side’

[Daffydaff]

Hello all. First time poster, and relative newcomer to this board. It was actually here, reading the thoughts of other women, that helped me to realise that my well-meaning "want to be on the right side of history / let's all be kind" thoughts on trans rights were becoming a little at odds with my feminist views, and I reached peak trans a while back.

So on to my post. I'm not sure what I want to say, really - maybe just to express my utter disappointment (and anger) that I lost a friend, a good friend of over 25 years, because of his myopic adherence to the TWAW and gender woo ideology, who closed his ears to what I was saying so absolutely that I'm still doing a double take days later.

His knee jerk reactions were just so... predictable: JKR is a transphobe. Not all women can have babies so what is a woman anyway. Safe spaces for women must include trans women because they are women. Just because something is legal (sex based rights) doesn't make it moral. Science is changing its opinion, sex doesn't matter.

It was my first real "discussion" on the matter (I use discussion in inverted commas because although I was happy to try and find some nuance I was getting nothing but sound bites back) but although I put some good points across I was just so shaky with sadness and lost some cohesion as he started dismissing my points.

The irony is that he is very vocal about being a feminist and anti MRA, but refused to acknowledge my experiences as a woman. When I spoke of the shared experiences of biological women, starting as girls and into adulthood, that trans women simply cannot understand, the oppressive but everyday sexism and misogyny that we often barely notice, so steeped in society it is... he said "not all women will experience that, does that make them less of a woman". Reader, it was at this point that I grew angry.

When I gave examples of stories that showed that at the very least a discussion should take place, over safeguarding, over the logical conclusion that if sex isn't real, then same sex attraction is transphobic, over a fundamental need for women
to be part of the discussion on losing rights that we have only just won, of AGP and self ID'ing for nefarious intentions, how women are just not the oppressors in this story... everything was just dismissed.

(He also brought up JKR's huge platform, suggesting she was punching down from her place of privilege. I pointed out that he had more privilege in his little finger as a white straight man than any woman, whatever her status might be now)

I also asked him that if he felt transwomen should be allowed into women only spaces such as a rape survivor centre, then surely he would agree that women should be able to attend groups just for trans women (pointing out how unhelpful this would be to both groups). His response was "I can't police that" despite the fact that he IS policing the former viewpoint! The mental gymnastics was baffling.

I ended the friendship - which is unlike me, as I am able to remain friends with people from all stripes - saying that we would not be compatible any more. If he was happy to label me as a transphobe then I could label him as a misogynist and homophobe, because... labels 🙄

Anyway, I think I just want support, and to know that I'm not the bad guy here, and to hear words of wisdom. Or indeed point out any flaws in my thinking - I'm still learning. I don't believe the two things need to be mutually exclusive - I don't want discrimination against trans people, in work, housing, society etc... but I also don't want women to diminished and erased.

Thanks for reading.

It was my first real "discussion" on the matter (I use discussion in inverted commas because although I was happy to try and find some nuance I was getting nothing but sound bites back) but although I put some good points across I was just so shaky with sadness and lost some cohesion as he started dismissing my points

It's hard to keep calm when men dismiss everything you say from a place of ignorance, isn't it sympathy. I've had similar with two married friends of mine. The man I just could not get through to at all, he just doesn't get why it's an issue for women. On another occasion his wife kind of got it but had the whole cognitive dissonance thing going on. She did listen more though. Then my DP drunkenly crashed the conversation and said something about men shouldn't be in women's loos and not only did no one scold him, they actually engaged with him reasonably, and didn't try to convince him that he was wrong!

You have my sympathy. I have had a not dissimilar experience. It’s hard - but even harder to overlook when supposedly clever people adamantly stick to their refusal to see the overall picture for women and girls. It’s made me realise how much misogyny is “out there”. 💐

I’m so sorry - I think quite a few of us here have lost friendships too. It’s horrible isn’t it - it still baffles me that someone will insist a man is a woman because they said they are

And as a childless woman who can’t have children because my female biology doesn’t work, the idea that that makes me analogous to a man is beyond fucking insulting. Feel free to pass that on to him x

In my experience, any man who labels himself as a male feminist tends to be a misogynistic tosser. I’ve known a few like that and they all had extensive porn habits and actually didn’t cope that well when they had female bosses telling them what to do. They then turned into TRAs, predictably.
If just one of them were to date or marry a TW (preferably one without surgery), then I’d be a bit more inclined to believe that they really think TWAW. On the contrary, most of them tend to have gender conforming partners/wives at home (whom they occasionally cheat on), together with kids, whose sex they are magically able to decipher from birth, despite sex not existing 🤔

In my experience, any man who labels himself as a male feminist tends to be a misogynistic tosser. I’ve known a few like that and they all had extensive porn habits and actually didn’t cope that well when they had female bosses telling them what to do. They then turned into TRAs, predictably.

This is a familiar pattern.

It’s not you. Provided you don’t hate anyone, you’re not bigoted. You just don’t agree with him. He’s biased and can’t see the difference. You’re well rid.

Male feminists' socialisation leads them to believe they're the most important feminists in the room and rarely take well to being challenged on, well, anything, I've found.

God, nail on head. It is sickeningly rage-making.

Frustrating, isn't it?

I'm afraid that with friends IRL I tend to test the water and if I know I am not going to be able to have a reasoned discussion, it becomes one of those subjects that we agree to disagree on (the other being fox hunting, I am very anti but I have friends who for their own reasons are pro)

I tried to talk to one friend and she absolutely would not have it that women should have their own toilets and spaces 'because in France they have mixed sex toilets and everyone is fine with that' and 'you sound like a racist, trying to exclude people' although she did at least stop short of TWAW and agreed that you die the sex you are born.

Men either really get it, or don't see a problem, in my experience. Sometimes it's finding the hook that gets them thinking about the realities in a way that affects them, either directly or indirectly. With DH, I talked about when his granny had carers going to her house and how would she feel if a male carer who called himself a woman arrived to do her intimate care, when she had specifically asked for female carers only?

The other thing that men seem to get is regarding dating partners - if he is straight and single, would he consider a TW as a potential partner? If not, why not? If he is gay would he date a TM? This line of thought probably not so effective if he is bisexual, though!

I think we all start at 'be kind' OP, imagining how awful it must be for people with crippling gender dysphoria who just want to feel comfortable in their own skin and live a normal life. Then once we discover that things have moved on somewhat from when that was what being trans was and we can see how very stacked against women's rights the TRA movement is, our position changes.

Let him go and wave happily. He sounds like those bloody men who find out a woman is a vegetarian and think it's intelligent and witty to bang on about 'screaming vegetables' all through dinner like they're the metyphysical incarnation of the Chuckle Brothers.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · Today 08:55

I’m so sorry - I think quite a few of us here have lost friendships too. It’s horrible isn’t it - it still baffles me that someone will insist a man is a woman because they said they are

And as a childless woman who can’t have children because my female biology doesn’t work, the idea that that makes me analogous to a man is beyond fucking insulting. Feel free to pass that on to him x

You have my sympathies, both for your health issues and the anger you rightfully feel.

I was speaking to someone recently about trans issues / child safeguarding / women's rights and he laughed at how I could waste my time on such a trivial issue. He also told me about a TW friend of his who is undoubtedly a woman... brought up as female from a very young age, blah blah blah. It would be beyond the pale to ask such a woman to use male spaces.

I was furious to hear such women's-concerns-dismissing nonsense, but when he announced his final position "TWAW apart from in my bed, obvs" my absolute despair and anger hit the roof, albeit not expressed.

I am going to continue to try to peak him in the coming weeks and months, but in the meantime he did send me a GC meme, bizarrely.

If he continues into the mid-term with the position "as a male I am entitled to tell women that they need to accept TWAW when they don't want to, but I can say TWAM when it suits me (ie when it comes to my sex life)" then I am going to be forced to say something pretty extreme.

"Science is changing its opinion" Did they really say this?

I would have stuck on this one and asked many, many questions.

He should concentrate on what is a man. Anyone with cock and balls is a man and can never be a woman.

Someone with male reproductive system is not the same as someone with a faulty female reproductive system.

He does not get to decide, in his infinite wisdom, what a woman is. He does not get to throw me and my kind under the bus. He does not get to tell us to form a orderly queue and get ourselves under the bus.

No thank you.

Or in short, he can just fuck off.

@NancyDrawed The other thing that men seem to get is regarding dating partners - if he is straight and single, would he consider a TW as a potential partner? If not, why not? If he is gay would he date a TM? This line of thought probably not so effective if he is bisexual, though!

I think that you are somewhat missing the point! IMHO, straight men categorically do not want a TW as a partner. This is bloomin' obvious, as by definition if a sex act is between two males it is gay sex and therefore the non-trans person having it cannot be straight. It is also obvious because if you like women you like women's curves and smell and (aspects of) female socialisation etc etc that TW just don't share.

So the question is not "would you date a TW?" The question is "Obviously as a straight man you would never date a trans woman. Are you happy to be labelled a bigot for your sexual orientation - someone akin to the boss who would never hire a black man, or the pub landlord who refuses to serve gay customers? If you are not happy to be labelled a bigot then you are gender critical, join the club!"

Ask him if he would sleep with a TW with full man tackle attached? (assuming he is straight), and if not, why not?

I'm sorry, but the simple answer is your friend is a man, and therefore has no real skin in this game. He will never lose out because of this, and doesn't have to really think of the issues because they don't affect him. It's so hard when our friends don't align with our world view, and it can be painful sometimes.

I have good friends with completely different world views than me (anti-vax etc.) but we manage to agree to disagree without insulting eachother because the friendship and the person is more important.

I also have a feeling there will come a time when I will lose some gay friends over this, I have not been vocal up until now for fear of them feeling I am somehow attacking their lifestyle etc. but I won't lie about it if it comes up. It will be painful if they don't want but I am not willing to accept this crap and what it does to women and girls.

So true

Thank you everyone for your replies. And yes. Yes to all of you. I am angry, and get angrier the more I think of it. His regular assertions that ‘as a white cisgender (🤢) man I can’t speak for all trans people’ … but he can speak for all women? Despite standing in front of a woman who was giving actual experiences!

Right at the end I tried to tell him that I, having been in his ‘be kind first / no questions asked’ position, would leave the door open if / when he realised that the conversation is more complex than he’s allowing for and wanted to chat. And do you know what he did? Tried to shut me down, accusing me of having the last word. Get that… a man trying to silence a woman and her rationality with his irrationality.

@NancyDrawed I have also started testing the water with friends in the aftermath - luckily my two close friends are, if not quite as peaked as I am, then uneasy. And I will continue to talk to others, because I am fed up feeling like it’s a dirty secret to believe in biology and women.

Please continue the conversation, I’ve felt a bit isolated about this for some time, and it’s so good to hear from others that I’m not mad. I can’t reply until tonight but I will!

The irony is that he is very vocal about being a feminist and anti MRA

You'll find that most MRA's are on 'our' side - which is good as they make useful foot soldiers.

Sympathy from me too, Daffy. It’s painful to realise a friendship isn’t worth keeping, and it’s enraging to be insulted the way he insulted you.

The irony is that he is very vocal about being a feminist and anti MRA, but refused to acknowledge my experiences as a woman. says it all really.

Anyone with who has ever had a cock and balls is a man and can never be a woman.

FTFY

Sorry this happened, OP. I had a similar experience recently, only with a female friend. Despite her intelligence and education, she'd been utterly brainwashed on this issue. Her wilful ignorance of the most basic facts around gender ideology and its impact on society and women's rights and language was astounding.

Interestingly it made me want to abandon the friendship. All along I've been worried people will reject me as a terf, but I've come to the point that I don't really want to put any effort into a relationship where someone is so doggedly indifferent to the obvious clash between trans ideology and women's rights. I'm happy to disagree with people on most things, but this feels like an existential threat. Some elephants in the room take up all the space.

This is why I've only brought this up with one close friend who I knew would feel similar, and also family who aren't as passionate but do at least get my point of view.

But if I had a friend like yours who felt sooo strongly about it I don't think I could continue our friendship.

Like you, I'm friends with people who have different ideas than me, like brexiteers, anti vaxxers, conservatives, Coldplay fans. But anyone who felt so strongly (and there are sliding scales aren't there), I'd be Facebook friends and maybe an acquaintance irl but nothing more.

Does he have a beard, OP?

The beardsplainers are the worst.

I just have absolutely no patience with this sort of shit whatsoever.

The more I delve into this issue, the more obvious it seems to be that believing that trans women are women is incompatible with being any kind of feminist. The fact that some so-called feminists such as Judith Butler disagree doesn't change that. Feminism is about female people. It's essentially the belief that female people should have equal rights and opportunities to male people, but coming from a position where female people do not already have those rights and opportunities. It's about levelling up for female people, and in order to do that, it absolutely has to put female people first.

If you believe that trans women are women, you are basically saying that you don't think we need a word for "female people" or that female people need any single sex spaces of their own from which male people - however they identify - can be excluded. That has huge consequences for sport, for all women shortlists, for female rape survivors and women with conservative religious beliefs who feel unable to share changing rooms with male people...basically for everything that has been set up for female people and not male people.

There are even trans people who acknowledge this, and say that whilst medical and/or surgical transition was the right choice for them personally, humans cannot change sex and trans people should not be automatically entitled to use single sex spaces for members of the opposite sex.

I simply do not see how it is possible to consider the impact of gender ideology on natal women, stick to your beliefs that trans women are women and should be allowed to access women's single sex spaces and sports, and continue to call yourself a feminist.

Having seen so many beardsplainers do exactly that, I have come to the conclusion that these woke bros are just old school misogynists at heart, that they previously felt unable to express their true contempt for women because it didn't fit with their "but I'm a nice guy!" image, and are delighted to be able to do so now under the pretence that they are being progressive and the women seeking to defend their own rights are the bigots.

I had a similar experience recently, only with a female friend. Despite her intelligence and education, she'd been utterly brainwashed on this issue. Her wilful ignorance of the most basic facts around gender ideology and its impact on society and women's rights and language was astounding.

@Phobiaphobic this was also my experience except it was with my sister (my only sibling with whom I was incredibly close while growing up). We now have very little in common except our family ties. I have to maintain some semblance of a relationship with her as long as my father is alive but I simply have no mental connection with her now.

Man here. Sorry your 'friend' is so tin eared. I was actually converted to GC by a young guy. He was also big into Intersectionalism which he explained to me in a very positive light. But then he read about young lesbians being pressured into accepting trans in their dating pool. This was his light bulb 💡 moment. He thought ' this is just misogyny '. Can't unsee it. As he puts it most of his generation bought their politics 'off the peg'. There's a whole suite of things you believe without really examining them

You post is very well argued and I'm not qualified to add anything to it. I totally get your anger and despair over this guy. Perhaps he will wake up if he finds himself ' on the wrong side of history '. Which he is.