Can't make this add up.

[MVDC]

I've been writing this in my notes for several days because I'm really struggling to get my thoughts straight on this.

I'm finding myself completely tangled up in my own brain here. I've read a LOT on MN about gender critical views and I agree with a great deal of it - the unfairness of trans women in women's sports, the importance of single sex spaces from a safety perspective, the potential for abuse inherent in self-ID, the growing social contagion, the ridiculousness of gender stereotypes, the huge safeguarding risks of early affirmation and transition, etc etc etc, all of this makes total sense to me.

But i find that so hard to parse with the lived experiences of my trans friends. I know a fair number of trans men and women, all of whom have endless stories of the ways in which society victimises and sidelines them on a daily basis, and it's undeniable that policy centring GC views would make their lives worse. Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces. Being continually misgendered on various admin systems, the many barriers to medical transition and the huge hoops that need to be jumped through in order for them to live authentic lives - all of these things mean that my friends are living with a huge burden every day.

I can't get my head round it. Keeping trans people safe comes at the cost of women's safety. But keeping women safe puts trans people at risk. Of course, at the heart of the matter, when you get right down to it, men are the problem, but knowing that doesn't actually give us any solutions! How do we square this circle?

I don't know what I'm expecting to get out of this, because if there was an easy answer we'd have it already, but does anyone else feel this same disconnect? It seems like there's no way to align the common sense of GC views with considerate safeguarding of genuinely trans individuals.

This. This in spades.

I know a fair number of trans men and women, all of whom have endless stories of the ways in which society victimises and sidelines them on a daily basis, and it's undeniable that policy centring GC views would make their lives worse.

First of all, society victimises and sidelines women on a daily basis, so if Tw want to be women why are they not embracing it as affirmation? And as society in general recognises females as women however they present, Tm are experiencing the continuation of sex-based victimisation and sidelining that you cannot identify out of.

Secondly, I do wonder what these stories of daily victimisation and sidelining actually reflect. Is it mockery, threats, or refusal of legitimate services because of their transness? (Again,similar to the misogyny that women regularly experience.) Of course wrong and should be challenged and changed. But if they are objecting to others refusing to engage with or affirm their personal faith, narrative or sexuality then they are being ridiculous and unreasonable.

Policy centring GC views would deny trans people access to the spaces and services specific to the other sex, but would also protect their rights to present as they wished and not be discriminated against for it. It would also protect their rights to have the same high quality of medical care as the rest of the population

In response to “embarrassing hadrosauraus” who commented that “no objects to Iszac Henig competing in the women's swimming events.” And “Grayson Perry, Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander report using the Men's public loos without incident.”:
iszac Henig at the moment is equivalent to a woman who has had a mastectomy (but without cancer and perhaps without removing lymph nodes”. In other respects, Iszag is female, though identifies as male and wishes to live as a man. No one objects to iszag because iszag has no unfair competitive advantage (as opposed to Lia Thomas competitions against women).

With regard to Grayson Perry: when dressed as his alter ego, he looks like a man dressed as a woman and is entirely confident in that role so am not surprised he does not have “incidents”. A transwoman might like very much like a woman (if lucky to afford good plastic surgery) so might encounter the same “incidents” in a male loo as women might.

one further thought: would the decisions being contemplated in this chat be easier if we could refer to men, women, transmen and transwomen? I know trans people wish to “be” the gender to which they have transitioned but medically and biologically they will always be trans. We could get around the ridiculous “people with a prostate” campaigns for prostate cancer, for example, if they were addressed to Men and Transwomen. More people know they are men or transwomen than have awareness of their prostates (amazing as that might sound.)

A transwoman might like very much like a woman (if lucky to afford good plastic surgery) so might encounter the same “incidents” in a male loo as women might.

Such people - a tiny, tiny minority - are irrelevant - if no-one can tell they're men, they could go into the women's without anyone noticing anyway. No-one's performing ID checks, and it's not worthwhile to do so.

In practice, the problem is inability to keep out people we can tell are men. A population at least thousands of times bigger than the mythical "passing transwoman".

Men are a real threat. There are lots of them. It's unlikely you'll ever meet a "passing transwoman", so they can be basically ignored.

I have some further thoughts, which might be more useful to you OP than my previous one!)

This might be an obvious and basic question, but can your friends not live their authentic lives as gender-nonconforming men, rather than as actual women?

80s star Marilyn comes to mind as an example of this - still cool and glamorous, and yet supports Jk Rowling and acknowledges he is a "he".

There are males who have transitioned and now feel with hindsight that the former would have been a better path for them. I'm thinking of TulipR, and Corinna Cohn/Heterodox Podcast. Both very wise voices (on Twitter and Substack).

Personally, I find androgyny an a very attractive trait in people. Literally pretending to be the opposite sex? Not so much.

(The "third space" option seems like an expensive onerous solution for a relatively small percentage of people. And kudos to you OP for having empathy for everyone in this).

would the decisions being contemplated in this chat be easier if we could refer to men, women, transmen and transwomen?

Yes, it's what we frequently do in discussions here so no one is confused. Some of the medical etc literature uses this sort of terminology. (Of course then they start being nagged to tack on something to cover 'nonbinaries' too...)

But to do that you have to deny the dogma of the transactivists (which is not shared by all genuine trans people of course) that transwomen are women.

In response to “embarrassing hadrosauraus” who commented that “no objects to Iszac Henig competing in the women's swimming events.” And “Grayson Perry, Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander report using the Men's public loos without incident.”:
iszac Henig at the moment is equivalent to a woman who has had a mastectomy (but without cancer and perhaps without removing lymph nodes”. In other respects, Iszag is female, though identifies as male and wishes to live as a man. No one objects to iszag because iszag has no unfair competitive advantage (as opposed to Lia Thomas competitions against women).

I believe that is exactly embarassing's point.

Many of us have been following and discussed Henig's races along with Thomas' over the past month. It is similar to Quinn being lauded as being able to play football in the female comp. Quinn is not on testosterone at all, nor had any surgery. It is a ridiculous sleight of hand that some people use them as comparators to competitors like Thomas, Hubbard and Bridges etc.

would the decisions being contemplated in this chat be easier if we could refer to men, women, transmen and transwomen

How about sticking to male and female.

@Inamuddle36 I have to assume that you are not familiar with the appearance of Fionne Orlander.

Grayson Perry self-describes as 'transvestite with gender dysphoria' which fits under the Stonewall trans umbrella.

I'm not sure what points you think you are making wrt the Iszac Henig and your omission of Emily Bridges. I was pointing out that both were competing with their sex class and nobody had any sense of awkwardness around their gender non-conforming appearance.

I was using examples to challenge the OP's account: Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces. Emily Bridges competed with male team mates and was plainly safe. I thought it would be helpful to address the inverse with Izsac Henig. There are trans people who facilities for their sex and they're safe.

I’m sorry but I don’t care about men who identify as women. I’ve run out of kindness. My friend has just started chemo for Breast cancer. This the last possible week for her treatment before the NHS breaks it’s own targets. That’s who I’m focusing on. And when she is ready for breast reconstruction I hope she is top of the pile before any transmen men.

But keeping women safe puts trans people at risk.
No it doesn't, only in a world where women are the default solution for this subset of men.

Women campaigned tirelessly for every fucking protection they have, I can't tell you how angry that makes me that it is being spun that way, that it's a problem for entitled males that women keep what they fucking earned.

No it doesn't, only in a world where women are the default solution for this subset of men.

Keeping women safe puts men called Keith at risk. If only men called Keith could use women's spaces, they'd be safer.

Exactly the same logic applies for any subset of men. Transwomen, ones called Keith, blonde ones, ones carrying a guitar.

To nominate one of those groups as "the men that get to be safe(r)" by going into "women's" spaces is unfair to other men, and even more unfair to women. And also works on the assumption that suddenly lots of men won't change their name to Keith, dye their hair blonde, or buy a guitar, if there's an incentive.

Sure, it sucks that by being male you don't get to be in a male-free space, but basic logic makes that impossible. Sorry. A different solution to male violence is required for males - a much more difficult one - but you can't take away the simple and effective solution for females as a sort of "levelling-down" equity measure.

How do you know that?

I too know a few transpeople and they don't have the same hangups and worries that the vocal TRA types seem to.

Transman uses male facilities and has had no issues in more than 30 years. He gets nothing more than the occasional side glance.

Transwomen uses male facilities and has had nothing more than a few side glances and the odd nod and mumbled 'mate!?'. She stopped using female loos many years ago when it became obvious that other women were startled or scared.

Neither of them report themselves being the focus of male violence, nor have I seen that happen to them. We live in a bit of a rural backwater, not really known for being cosmopolitan or even particularly accepting of strangers. Male violence is as prevalent here as anywhere else.

Helleofabore · Today 10:31

iszac Henig at the moment is equivalent to a woman who has had a mastectomy (but without cancer and perhaps without removing lymph nodes”. In other respects, Iszag is female, though identifies as male and wishes to live as a man. No one objects to iszag because iszag has no unfair competitive advantage (as opposed to Lia Thomas competitions against women).

Not being funny, but surely if every single female swimmer prioritized winning within the rules then they'd all get double mastectomies? Is there not an argument that unnecessary medical procedures that may confer an advantage should be banned from women's sports?

OP not coming back to address the difficult points raised then , seem to just feel their opinion that trans people are unsafe trumps all.

I can tell the OP one thing for definite, no transwoman has ever been raped by a woman. Since the reverse is not true my sympathies are limited.

Yes I know NATWALT I’m really tired of having to state that as no one here has ever stated that they are all like that just we cant tell which are

'keeping women safe puts trans people at risk'
Oh bog off will you.

This has also been explored on threads too. The compression suits though do go someway to reduce this advantage it seems.

How do you know so many trans people? I thought they were a tiny minority…

Anyway, if males are unsafe in males spaces (no evidence of this claim by the way), then that’s men’s job to solve, not up to women to accept a greater risk to their safety to solve this man made issue.

Every woman I know who has had a mastectomy, single or double, has ended up with weakness or problems using her arm on the side of the mastectomy. But all of them had had their mastectomies for medical reasons as part of treatment for breast cancer. Clearly elective, non-medical mastectomies are different if they leave the patient still able to swim competitively.

Every woman I know who has had a mastectomy, single or double, has ended up with weakness or problems using her arm on the side of the mastectomy.

Yes, indeed. And they generally have little or no sensation in the area, which s daily weird, but also means a loss of sexual function/pleasure.

I know at least 3 women who've had double mastectomies to save their lives. I get a bit aerated about people having mastectomies as some sort of "gender" affirmation.

That's usually because lymph nodes are removed as well which can cause real problems. Mastectomies for gender affirming reasons would leave the lymph nodes alone (presumably).

However, I do think that having that much tissue removed and that level of surgery is still going to cause some mobility issues with the muscle and skin, even if just temporarily.

all of whom have endless stories of the ways in which society victimises and sidelines them on a daily basis

I am absolutely convinced that for a lot of these cases, the people involved are just used to sailing through life as (frequently middle class straight white) men, and so when they fail to continue to dominate everyone else's perception of them - ie when people around them persist in still reading them as men, and not immediately bowing to their demands to see them as women - they experience this as The Worst Oppression Ever, as they haven't ever really bothered listening to or trying to understand the issues faced by the women around them.

Excellent point ArcheryAnnie women are so used to being victimised and sidelined I forget white middle class males aren’t used to not always having everyone go along with their perception of themselves.

I also think that it is the case that if a person is worried about being treated poorly, they will often noce a lot more instances of that, and I have come to the conclusion that to some extent it has to be a matter of interprative lens.

I don't think it's the being trans that makes any male unsafe in a male space - (for a start, it's the males that make it safe or dangerous) - but I guess how they present themselves that might attract aggression? So perhaps you are conflating a person's gender and their gender expression, appearance etc - you can't tell anyone's gender from looking, but anyone, trans or otherwise, not meeting certain 'expectations' of appearance might provoke violence from a violent male.

These expectations of appearance arise from gender.
I think it's important not to confuse gender and dress, appearance, etc.

I don't see why it's so hard to have third spaces. Lots of places have an individual restroom with a lock on the inside, for families with opposite sex members that need to stay together (e.g. mother traveling with disabled son who needs help in restroom). Surely this phenomenon can simply be expanded. No, it does not provide the trans person with the right to socialise in intimate spaces with members of the desired sex, but I think the safety and privacy of women should come before the desire of people of the opposite sex to be validated or to socialise in an intimate space where women are in a state of undress.