Can't make this add up.

[MVDC]

I've been writing this in my notes for several days because I'm really struggling to get my thoughts straight on this.

I'm finding myself completely tangled up in my own brain here. I've read a LOT on MN about gender critical views and I agree with a great deal of it - the unfairness of trans women in women's sports, the importance of single sex spaces from a safety perspective, the potential for abuse inherent in self-ID, the growing social contagion, the ridiculousness of gender stereotypes, the huge safeguarding risks of early affirmation and transition, etc etc etc, all of this makes total sense to me.

But i find that so hard to parse with the lived experiences of my trans friends. I know a fair number of trans men and women, all of whom have endless stories of the ways in which society victimises and sidelines them on a daily basis, and it's undeniable that policy centring GC views would make their lives worse. Trans women are not welcome in female spaces, but also aren't safe in male spaces. Being continually misgendered on various admin systems, the many barriers to medical transition and the huge hoops that need to be jumped through in order for them to live authentic lives - all of these things mean that my friends are living with a huge burden every day.

I can't get my head round it. Keeping trans people safe comes at the cost of women's safety. But keeping women safe puts trans people at risk. Of course, at the heart of the matter, when you get right down to it, men are the problem, but knowing that doesn't actually give us any solutions! How do we square this circle?

I don't know what I'm expecting to get out of this, because if there was an easy answer we'd have it already, but does anyone else feel this same disconnect? It seems like there's no way to align the common sense of GC views with considerate safeguarding of genuinely trans individuals.

You can't square the circle if you believe that keeping women safe inherently disadvantages trans people.

You have to divorce the two - look at it differently and from the pov that society needs to find a way to meet trans people's needs which does not make anyone else unsafe.

The only workable proposal I can see is third spaces.

If it seems impractical right now, I would say look back to when accessibility for disabled people wasn't a thing. I am sure people then said that it would be ideal for ramps/disabled loos for eg to be generally available but it wasn't practical. But ways have been found.

I find it is the denial that there is conflicts inherent to 'keeping women safe without disadvantaging trans people' when 'disadvantaging trans people' seems to involve not acknowledging their sex when it really does matter that is one of the biggest causes of dissonance, OP.

Do your trans friends not acknowledge their sex?
Do your trans friends believe that if they are male, they should be treated as a female in every situation?

If that is their demand then, I don't know quite how you are ever going to not 'disadvantage' them. They have been set up to be continuously 'disadvantaged' by groups and people who did not have women's best interests at heart and therefore they neglected that women are very much stakeholders in this instance.

Maybe we shouldn’t have been validating these choices for so long.

Being continually misgendered on various admin systems, the many barriers to medical transition and the huge hoops that need to be jumped through in order for them to live authentic lives

These are the huge burdens your trans friends suffer from?

You've listed three things here, but the third is nonspecific, so really just two things.

Admin systems that accurately record your sex really shouldn't be a problem for anyone. But even if the information recorded was inaccurate, this is small potatoes. Women who've changed their names deal with the equivalent all the time and it probably doesn't even occur to them to moan about it most of the time. It's the kind of thing you complain about when you have no actual difficulties in your life.

Everyone has barriers accessing health care at the moment. Even necessary, lifesaving healthcare. Some people experiencing "barriers" to accessing free cosmetic treatments with is not something I can get concerned about.

I have yet to see any evidence that transwomen are unsafe in male spaces - and I doubt it's true, or they wouldn't be campaigning to open up female spaces to every man who wants in. If safety was a real concern for transwomen they'd want third spaces for trans people, and they'd want gatekeeping about who is allowed into them. Self-ID is absolutely incompatible with protecting transwomen from male predators - unless the idea is to use women and girls as human shields - so why are all the trans organisations and trans activists gung-ho for it?

Some people experiencing "barriers" to accessing free cosmetic treatments with

should say

with a dubious evidence base

"Being continually misgendered on various admin systems, the many barriers to medical transition and the huge hoops that need to be jumped through in order for them to live authentic lives - all of these things mean that my friends are living with a huge burden every day."

By misgendered I assume you mean correctly sexed? It is important for many and various reasons that biological sex is officially recorded rather than gender identity. Like a PP said, it's no different than your BMI being on your medical records. You might not like being referred to as obese or a man/woman, but it is an important medical fact.

Barriers to medical transition. Would you prefer there to be no barriers to medical transition? There is no long-term evidence of the safety of cross-sex hormones and plenty of evidence of poor outcomes, both for mental health and physical health. For surgery, the arguments against are even clearer, not only for the individual who is highly likely to experience significant long-term health issues, the large and increasing number of detransitioners, but also in the sense that the NHS is on its knees, it cannot respond adequately to genuine medical emergencies. It should not be used to remove healthy tissue in order to affirm a dysphoria.

What are the hoops they have to jump through to love authentic lives? Anyone is free to live in a gender non-conforming way that aligns with their authentic self.

That's what they said about public toilets for women. Third spaces will exist if there is a demand for them exist.

However, the TW I know who (rightly) use the men's toilets haven't mentioned anything about being unsafe - or rather no more unsafe that gay men, effeminate men, disabled men, etc etc. We're not inviting any of them into the women's facilities so why should we invite TW in?

What specific difficulties do your trans friends experience? If it's regularly being seen as their birth sex, I'd thing especially for TW that's pretty much inevitable. Maybe the focus on being happy within themselves and not requiring external validation would be more useful. No one can change how other people perceive them, and having an identity that demands such will be a pretty fragile state of affairs.

Isn't living life without deception 'authentic'? What part of needing to not acknowledge your sex (not your gender) is authentic?

I don't think I am the only one who is skeptical whenever that word is used in these instances.

Authentic would surely mean to live as a transitioned male or female without need for not acknowledging sex and without extreme cosmetic surgery.

I guess that if you mean that recognising that biological sex exists and is sometimes quite important is damaging to trans people (because they would prefer to pretend that it is always irrelevant and/or that they were not born the opposite sex), then yes, unfortunately there is a conflict.

I suspect that you do and that the Debbie Hayton route (ie fully transition, but accept that you are not female and there will be some female spaces and experiences that you cannot share, though hope for a high degree of social acceptance as a woman - i for one have no issue with this) isn't acceptable to your friends, who find this reality painful.

I do feel for them, but I can't really resolve this for your friends and I am not sure that we should, in a way. I mean this kindly, but is this truly in your friends' best interests to be living in denial to this extent? Because short of total compulsion of denial of reality under fear of awful consequences, some people will unthinkingly get it wrong (Misgendering is really just a failure to play along and can be inadvertent rather than intentional) and some admin systems will take a while to get updated (and probably the GP should record and reference bio sex where applicable though any GP should be sensitive in how they approach it).

Great post.

Move back about a century and the box that women fit into was very narrow - there were types of women (respectable ones, fallen ones), suffragettes were chastised for being unfeminine, literally deviant by natural standards.

Over the course of generations women have pushed the boundaries of what it means to be a woman - and to be entitled to the rights and dignities of a woman/ human.

When you are deemed not to belong in the man box, you fall by default into the woman box (you can see this in insults like “sissy/like a girl/big girls blouse” etc).

All men would ultimately benefit if those who get pushed out of the man box, pushed back and demanded acceptance as a different type of man - not the narrow toxic version of masculinity but a broader definition that includes anyone born male living their life any way they choose.

Gay men have done this in the last three decades. It seems to me a massive missed opportunity that trans people allow the narrow toxic definition of man to stand and jump into woman as a default category. (but then it’s only a missed opportunity if you assume we’re all trying to achieve acceptance and equality.)

Having third spaces is just a matter organisation. (Similar 'you want utopia' claims were made about making public places accessible for wheelchairs.)

I think that men would want to help trans women feel safe and would be happy to support separate spaces for them.

Women are already happy to welcome trans men into spaces with them - but I'm sure that they would support access to a third space if that is wanted by trans men.

The problem is that some trans rights activists would not want third spaces.

Talk to Stonewall, not us.
If they'd put their money and power behind recognising the difference between identified gender and sex instead of pretending sex doesn't exist, this problem would be halfway solved by now.
Things to consider:

• Educating men to be accepting of gender nonconforming men. There's still homophobia but much progress has been made on that front, do the same for males with gender dysphoria.
• Third spaces.
• Separate, optional categories in data collection for gender identity so that people can be addressed as they wish without losing vital medical data on their sex.
• Recognition of gender identity as a belief system some people subscribe to and others don't.

I can't get my head round it. Keeping trans people safe comes at the cost of women's safety. But keeping women safe puts trans people at risk. Of course, at the heart of the matter, when you get right down to it, men are the problem, but knowing that doesn't actually give us any solutions! How do we square this circle?

Why do you think it’s womens job to put themselves at risk to provide a protective shield for transwomen who typically still have male height and strength to help mitigate any risk to them?

Your friends’ problem is that they are all trying to bend reality to their own feelings and beliefs and then when reality in the form of systems and people doesn’t behave as they want - because they recognise reality not illusions - they feel unhappy. They have made their happiness contingent on everyone else bending to their will and pretending: life doesn’t work like that. They have been encouraged by people like Stonewall to believe they should have this, and that they are the most victimised of all.

The solution, and their happiness, lies in not expecting the impossible.

For me it's simple.

Transwomen: I don't care. Men can deal with that.

Transmen: I don't care. Reject womanhood? Crack on, but don't expect any help or support from me when it all goes tits off up.

I would argue that it is the more extreme end of the trans activists plus stonewall that have created this problem. 5 or 10 years ago, most women were sympathetic and accepting of transwomen (or transsexuals).

However most transsexuals we're not denying reality and not insisting on barging in where it is not appropriate. It is stonewall insisting that 'transwomen are women' is a literal truth and blocking any debate which has created the mess we are currently in.

I have enormous sympathy for those with gender dysphoria just trying to get on with their lives, but that doesn't mean we should let women's rights to privacy and their own sport's categories to be trampled over.

And I'm not even mentioning the whole safeguarding mess with gender issues and children.

@MVDC

OP how do you identify genuinely trans individuals ?

The male who raped me fits Stonewalls definition. The rapist’s ‘gender fluid cross dressing’ lulled me into thinking that rapist was not a threat.*

I dare not say this to anyone under my real name for fear of further abuse

Why the fuck do you think I should have to have my life restricted further so males like the one who raped me can get access to female spaces where we are vulnerable?

*sentence structure is clumsy because I cannot and will not use female pronouns for a rapist and if I use male pronouns my post is in danger of being deleted

For us women just being allowed to be called women seems a bit of a utopian idea at present to be honest.

Exactly.

Make your choice, you pay the price.
I'm sick to fucking death of being told your friends choices mean my life has to change, be even more limited, more dangerous, more difficult, less free.

No. Just 100% no No No No No No.

I'm all out of female kindness.

This!

Do you know what I’ve just realised reading this thread? For all of us women, transwomen and transmen it’s one group of men that have got us all cornered.
We know who those men are. We know the ones that are the threat. We know who it is that women, transwomen and transmen are frightened of. It’s the same people. They’ve managed to get us all to fight amongst ourselves

Your rapist is a 'he'. Do not ever feel you can't say that.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

Piffle.