How to react re children telling you about trans friends

[plainwhitecheese]

Dd14 tells me she's going out tomorrow, I ask who, she tells me (I've changed names) Lucy, Beth, Sarah and Josh

I know of the girls but ask who is josh

She says oh it's my mate who you know as Laura, he's trans and goes by Josh

So. I feel bad because I feel like 20 years ago people were dismissive of people being gay etc and I don't want to be ignorant and transphobic. But, much against how I wish I felt, I find it hard to stop my eyes rolling a bit.

I don't want to be ignorant, and bigoted. It almost feels to me like the pure amount of people proclaiming to be trans almost makes a mockery out of those with genuine body dismorphia. Or do I just need to get a grip and realise it's not up to me to feel a certain way about how people identify

@RoseslnTheHospital
Sorry but you really need to read the scientific studies. There are in fact structural and activity pattern differences between female and male brains. How they get there either by biology or environment is neither here nor there, the fact is that there are sex differences. And recent brain scans are showing support for transgender as a biological reality.

I have read the research, patronising of you to assume that I haven't. I am not arguing that there are not aggregate differences between male and female brains. Nor that the brains of transgender individuals may show differences from non transgender individuals. Taxi drivers who have passed The Knowledge show specific differences to the brains of those that haven't, to give one example. What none of that means is that there is such a thing as a "female" sexed brain or a "male" sexed brain that is independent of the body that it is in, nor that it is possible to identify the sex of a brain via scans, nor that it is possible to state that someone has the opposite sex brain to their body. To suggest otherwise is to go far beyond what the science currently shows.

Have a read of this, if you haven't already:

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804?via%3Dihub

I'm a parent of a girl who now says she's a boy. She has a circle of friends with so many new names and identities I honestly hardly know who is who anymore.

I would very much suggest the nodding and ok have fun comment approach.

Anything else in my opinion, simply adds fuel to the fire. I am very much of the mindset that this is largely a teen trend and the adults bending over to enable it are part of the problem.

Adults didn't get involved with teenagers wanting to be goths, mods, punks etc. They just let the kids get on with their trends and surprise surprise most went through those phases just fine and happy but without needing to continue them into their adult life. Adults desperately keen to be seen as so understanding and supportive and frankly woke really need to step back on this. It doesn't help.

That was my first thought too - shouldn't they be in the girls' school?

And then I thought, they're not a girl, however much they might want to be. This isn't for girls to deal with.

How they get there either by biology or environment is neither here nor there, the fact is that there are sex differences.

But if they are caused by environment then they cannot be sex differences. Since sex is biological.

If this was indeed a factor, then brain scans would be used as a reliable tool for diagnosis.

The Taxi driver example is a good one.

Also hormones will make changes. So, if a male has been on female cross sex hormones, yes, they may well be changes then. Maybe even on puberty blockers.

Happy to see your original source studies. Do you have a link for the one mentioned in the article, I would be interested in reading the entire document? Do you have any others?

Adults desperately keen to be seen as so understanding and supportive and frankly woke really need to step back on this. It doesn't help.

Yes.

@Pineapplepine in our area they have to attend the school of their biological sex. So you can have Sally - formerly known as Jimmy - at the boys' school but she wouldn't be allowed at the girls' school yet.
Why someone identifying as female would want to go to / stay at a boys' school is a bit of a mystery to me, but hey-ho.

My DS's girlfriend (I've checked this is the preferred term - apparently it would sound silly to call them a 'theyfriend' - I didn't comment!!) goes by a typically male name and wants people to use they/them pronouns. While they are not stereotypically girly, they clearly present as female. I am fairly confident that not that long ago years ago they would have been a bit emo/goth/indie.

I have also taken a 'that's nice dear' approach and make very little comment. I use the girlfriends preferred new name and try to get the pronouns right, although I find that quite hard and often revert to she/her etc.

I've previously told DS that I do not believe people can change sex and that I think the explosion in trans/non-binary kids (girls mainly as far as I can tell in his school) is as a result of regressive stereotyping.

By that logic it means tomboys and girly boys don’t exist which they do

Your biological sex influences your environment in terms of brain development.

I think you are in a very crowded room of companions here OP. Many of us are very aware of the issues you discuss.

My daughter has 2 trans friends (girls into boys, with name changes). I don't say anything, just carry on the conversation as normal. To me they're still the same people, just an update on new names really.

"Tomboy" is a regressive sexist term for a girl displaying utterly normal behaviours for a child, but that are culturally unacceptable for girls to normally participate in. Sissies, which is the much less palatable nickname for a "girly" boy, is a regressive sexist term for a boy displaying likewise. In some situations, displaying culturally unacceptable behaviour will lead some people to go a step further and believe that their child is somehow the opposite sex and pass that message strongly on to their child.

If a child is told that the behaviours, attitudes, feelings, choices they have are only available to the opposite sex, then that's where they might feel they have a trans identity. If they are told it's unusual for their sex, then they might feel they are an unusual kind of boy/girl and develop an identity of "tomboy" or whatever the culturally specific term is. If they are told its totally normal for both boys and girls then they generally go on to not think much about this aspect of their development. Whether a child perceives themselves to be trans, a tomboy/girly, or just a child with a personality, depends very much on their specific social/cultural setting.

Your biological sex influences your environment in terms of brain development.

What do you mean?

So, for instance, are we discussing children who do stereotypical 'gendered' activities? Such as playing a particular sport which I can certainly understand all particular types of sport might have the same effect.

But will a boy's brain resemble a girl's brain if they are all doing the same activities? Like the Taxi drivers?

Of course "Tom boys " exist. And plenty of girls are more than happy to have and display characteristics that society deems to be male. But there will also be many, especially since it's note so common for people to say they're trans, who think this could and probably does apply to them. Very young impressionable minds.

My ds likes 'girly' things and that's always been fine, but since his older sister saying that her friend ids as a boy, ds (10) said he hasn't decided if he's definitely a boy!

I've told him he definitely is a boy biologically however that is no barrier at all to wearing a dress, make up, liking pink and dating boys.

I love it when people suddenly appear on FWR, armed with Twitter catchphrases and the Ladybird Book of Biology, and start telling the locals what’s what.
I can never decide if they really think they’re revealing a ‘gotcha’ or whether they’re hoping to harvest screenshots, but it’s deeply satisfying to see educated, informed women kindly but firmly explaining what’s actually what.

@Helleofabore

various studies
Brain structure and function in gender dysphoria
www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0056/ea0056s30.3.htm

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35329908/

The Complex Relationships between Sex and the Brain
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31509086/

The Neuroanatomy of Transgender Identity: Mega-Analytic Findings From the ENIGMA Transgender Persons Working Group
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34030966/

Epigenetics Is Implicated in the Basis of Gender Incongruence: An Epigenome-Wide Association Analysis
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34489625/

Cortical Gyrification in Transgender Individuals
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33718960/

Thank you, I am having a read of the ones that I can get free access to.

Is there one in particular that you find very convincing?

Yes I have read that along with

Sex differences in the brain
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34587872/

Morphometrical Brain Markers of Sex Difference
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33774662/

Development of sex differences in the human brain
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32902364/

Are Sex Differences in Human Brain Structure Associated With Sex Differences in Behavior?
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34323639/

Role of glial cells in the generation of sex differences in neurodegenerative diseases and brain aging
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33766745/

It is all so new and current research is just scraping the surface. So currently, all I am convinced of at this time is that transgender identity in transgender people has a biological component to it. That it is not purely a modern day social construct (gender woo). History would seem to support this as well because transgender people are not a new phenomenon in human society.

There might well be a bio component to gender identity, Discover, and it's interesting to speculate.

It doesn't, of course, have any bearing at all on sex-based rights or provisions.

You can't do anything about that but what you need to do is make sure your child knows what sex is and that it's real. It's basic anatomy. Many children are being deprived of this knowledge but like I say, we can't do anything about it.

@Discovereads I will repeat - I am not arguing that there are not aggregate differences between male and female brains.

I will ask again, is 6ft 3inches a male height? Is 5ft 2inches a female height? Is it possible to identify the sex of a brain, based on scans/activity?