Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

[janeseymour78]

By this, I mean I have friends who are 100% pro pronouns as a show of support and we've had our debates, and then there are others who say it is unhealthy to reinforce stereotypes, eg. By using them on work signatures

For me though, adding she/her pronouns to everything and even having being asked what they are verbally, she/her feels alien to me in a visceral way. I'm curious about this because I have several friends who don't share that feeling at all.

Im GC and I don't believe people are binary. I have elements of feminity and masculinity that whatever else that form who I am. I know I'm a woman, I have endometriosis so I'm painfully aware, as well as all the other reasons women are made aware of their sex.

It comes down to adding 'she/her' to everything would not feel right to me, as though it didn't reflect me. It would like I was falsely reinforcing my womanhood when I don't live my life that way or feel that way. Am I making sense? Do others feel this way?

Quite. I'm a woman who doesn't have kids or do much housework, yet I'd still feel a bond with another woman that I wouldn't feel with a transwoman on account of our shared sex. In fact, I could be in the company of a woman who has a completely different identity to me in terms of lifestyle, beliefs, politics, job, family, responsibilities, interests, personality, taste etc and I would still have that common bond with her, because we are both women and have had to navigate the world from childhood, through puberty, through adulthood as female. Everyone was on board with supporting transwomen when it was accepted that they are transwomen and have their own issues that are different to those of women. It's male entitlement that is underlying this mission to dismantle what a woman actually is, our commonality, in order to suit them and their egos. In turn, this destroys what women have fought for and laws that protect us.

You are the only one who talks about stereotypes, despite me telling you repeatedly that it's got nothing to do with that.

You didn't answer my question earlier. What is it about then, if it's not about sex and it's not about sex-based stereotypes?

Just popping in to point out, again, that just because the words we use to describe phenomena in the world are a social construct (in that the word 'cat', 'neko', 'chat', 'Katze') this does not mean that the thing itself (cats) are a social construct. Cats themselves are a biological species that do not depend on human thought and discourse for their existence, whereas the word 'cat' is a linguistic convention that does require human thought for its existence.

But it's a basic error to mistake the label, the word, for the thing itself and to infer that because the label is a social construct the thing is also a social construct. The words 'sex', 'male' and 'female' are social constructs, but this does not mean the underlying reality (biological sex, which is an evolved property to facilitate reproduction ) is also a social construct. We could label the reproductive sexes anything we like, but this doesn't change the fact that in reality there are still two reproductive sex roles which we call male and female.

Precisely.

You are the only one who talks about stereotypes, despite me telling you repeatedly that it's got nothing to do with that.
You gave a definition that was entirely based on stereotypes!

Pile of ridiculous, self indulgent nonsense and I won’t be joining in.

I've never been asked in a formal situation and don't know what I would do if I was.

I've had thoughts about it. But I'm a person who can't bring myself to be incongruent, it's difficult for me to be so.

I cannot imagine a circumstance that would get me to say 'she/her' in response. I think I'll go for Socratic method and just keep asking 'what do you mean?'

what are your pronouns?

what do you mean?

how shall I refer to you?

by my name.

I mean are you male or female

Female

So you're she/her?

What do you mean?

-Until they leave me alone.

@IstayedForTheFeminism
> “doesn't make you the opposite sex”
Misinterpreting everything as usual.

> “It makes you a man who likes x or a woman who likes y.”
A trans woman being a woman has nothing to do with what she "likes".

> “He's breaking away from gender norms whilst still being a boy.”
Okay. And some other peoples gender non-conformity extends to pronouns and labels. What's your issue with that?

A trans woman being a woman has nothing to do with what she "likes".

What does it have to do with then?

When you say a trans woman is a woman what do you mean exactly?

Do you mean she is female?

Or that you don't have to be female to be a woman?

If "feminine pronouns" are a stereotype, then referring to a trans woman with "he" pronouns is imposing stereotypes.

Her identity, sense of self.

Non-trans and trans women can both like whatever they want and be women, regardless of how feminine or masculine that may be.

None of that dictates either's identity.

Exactly! They have a journey of their own and unique challenges. Why deny that?

I was at a lunch a few weeks ago and a TW was there (with wife). They seemed a perfectly polite person - a little nervy, but hey ho - and I had some friendly chats and a laugh with them. I obviously called them by their chosen name (not that I know their birth name). I felt a certain sympathy and obligation towards them because I felt they must worry about the reactions they might get from people. However, it was very clear to everyone that they were male. That's almost inevitable.

Otherwise you'd have to confront the fact you're just attacking people for breaking away from the rigid gender norms imposed on them based on their "sex".
It's amazing how far fetched you will get in your arguments, to claim that feminists want to attack people for breaking away from gender norms. You are desperate and have no argument, those arguing from your position never do. You haven't answered any of my points on how your ideology is based on equating 'woman' and 'man' with sexist stereotypes, and forcing others to use this framework. I don't identify as a 'cis woman', because I don't identify with sexist stereotypes that have been forced on women by patriarchy. Gender identity ideology claims all women, unless stating otherwise by announcing pronouns etc, by default are happy with sexist stereotypes. I do not accept this, nor do I wish to claim a 'non-binary' identity, because I don't think there is anything special about me, I think most women are not happy with sexist stereotypes and modes of behaviour that are forced on them. Therefore I am just a woman, not 'cis', not 'non-binary'.

Absolutely this. I had been going to say it, but @CoastalWave has said it for me.

If anyone asked me to go along with this pronoun nonsense, I would point blank refuse.

It's funny, how many times have I seen the question asked "what is trans identity based on if it isn't sex or sex role stereotypes", and the amount of times I've seen it answered in any meaningful way? Zero.

Her identity, sense of self.

Why does that have to be the word for a female person rather than a male one? How are male people making that connection?

If these males have little to no similarities with female people as a whole, what is the purpose of this category?

Maybe because you reject any definition that doesn't agree with your own framework?

Why did you insist there needs to be a "purpose".

*Why do you insist

Again, please define what transgender identity is based on if not sex or sex role stereotypes.

Again: it's not. It's using sex-based pronouns. You said gender identity is not obvious, it's an internal feeling so how am I even meant to remember what everyone's "gender identity " pronouns are? It's impossible.

Pressed Post too soon... I meant to add, if the perfectly polite and nervy TW at lunch had turned round and told me that they were literally a woman same as me and it was all just a social category anyway, my sympathies would have immediately shrivelled and I would have given them short shrift.

(By the way, I just avoided pronouns then and in the retelling, because "she" is not what I perceived).

Why did you insist there needs to be a "purpose".

Because that's how categories work.

So there is no purpose to it? Well women DO need a word in order to fight sex-based oppression. According to you, trans people don't. They just want it. I would say the needs of half the population trump the wants of a few. You can't always get what you want.