A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

[Soubriquet]

A website has said they have lost many followers with supporting this.

I just don’t understand why this is being promoted. If men in general were able to breastfeed children, why is this not being encouraged among married couples? Im sure plenty of men would be willing to step up and share breastfeeding with their partner.

It can’t be healthy for a baby to be fed this way, as surely the transwoman would be taking multiple type of hormones in order to remain transitioned?

Link

I'm sorry @PenelopePipPip I don't follow. You're saying that people thinking this is abusing an infant are contribution to low rates of BF in general by suggesting that if men are doing it for sexual gratification then women must be, too? Really?

And that actually, 'people' who want to nurture their baby will naturally want to suckle? My DH is an unbelievable dad. His desire to nurture and nourish his children is massive but has NEVER manifested in a desire to put his nipples in their mouth. It has, however, manifested in being an incredible support to his breastfeeding wife. Feeding and nurturing me, making sure I rest, sleep and stay hydrated. Like all decent fathers.

Because he said he did! Is that not clear enough for you?

@holibobs12 "If you have sexual stimulation feeding your baby, it may be time to stop."

Where did I say that? I said it is very normal for women to find their nipples become more sensitive in the weeks after birth as oestrogen levels rise (and they heal from injuries caused by human infants being bloody awful at breastfeeding - having been through the process three times I can accept its a flaw in evolution but don't try and tell me we were designed to do this). Most of us are quite capable of distinguishing the pleasant sensation of an infant latching on from sexual arousal.

This is exactly the kind of response I find really worrying. It encourages women to feel squeamish about breastfeeding. Once you get going many of us find breastfeeding really good, unsurprisingly it should be accompanied with significant dopamine rushes in the first few weeks. Its a powerful experience. And research on men shows their dopamine levels rise in response to skin to skin contact with their babies so even a TW trying to establish breastfeeding may find it creates a strong sense of wellbeing and a desire to nurture.

"So if this was available why was I you'd to give up as my body wasn't producing breast milk? Why is this protocol not available to born women? I wasn't even told this was an option just give the baby formula"

I don't know why you were told to give up and I am sorry that happened to you. I hve no idea if this protocol is ever used in the UK but unlike the US domperidone is prescribed here to simulate milk production - I don't know if this was offered to you but it is an option. AFAIK the case studies being discussed involve TW in the US who will be funding their own healthcare. I only know one pair of trans parents and they definitely did not get much support with breastfeeding on the NHS. I think to be fair to the NHS its equal opportunities shit at breastfeeding support.

Suckling stimulates the nipples and feels good, equating that to paedophilia implies that the primary motivation for doing it is sexual

There is a massive difference in adult sexual activity, ie women having their nipples stimulated by their partner, and a woman breastfeeding a newborn. I've never heard a woman say a suckling baby 'feels good' in the way these men do.

Baffles me that you keep finding reasons to normalise this behaviour from grown men. Just like all the other women on facebook threads applauding and pandering to male lactation fantasies.

@RinklyRomaine "And that actually, 'people' who want to nurture their baby will naturally want to suckle?"

No you have reversed what I said. It feels natural to me that people will feel an urge to nurture their babies by breastfeeding does not mean all people. If your DH does not feel that he wants to that is of course his prerogative. As I said above I suspect my Dh would have been happy to although happily was not called upon to do so.

I.e. it is not 'unnatural' or biologically inappropriate for TW to participate in breastfeeding provided both parents agree to it, they take medical advice and the baby thrives. Its just one of many things parents can choose to do.

And the point about squeamishness isn't that this thread promotes it (I assume its a bit of a niche topic?!). Just that to breastfeed I had to open my mind to different ideas about feeding, including the possibility of extending feeding, shared feeding, wet-nursing etc. So my default position where breastfeeding is concerned is to accept that if it is working, the baby is thriving and the parents are happy it is OK. I am not revolted or appalled by the idea of a trans-parent participating in this way although I agree breastfeeding women need lots of other forms of support. And as other people hav e said on this thread women who want to breastfeed in this country are criminally undersupported. But that doesn't mean this is wrong, just breastfeeding support is good.

You can induce la ration in any human with sufficient breast tissue, including biological men. Humans are the only known animal where lactation can be induced without either pregnancy or supplementary hormones and there have been documented evidence of men having sufficient breast milk to pump 1-2 ounces per time.

So totally plausible that a transwomen could do this without anything more than a breast pump.

@PenelopePipPip

I feel like you'll just have an answer for anything. I say 'maybe don't continue if you're getting aroused' and that's apparently controversial or worrying. Yes, the tw in the screenshot probably should. Wtf does that have to do with bio women.

Tbh I doubt they would be bragging on a blog about it anyway.

I'm sorry to hear that waitwhat. I'm sure that was an experience for many. I was told this by someone who works in infant feeding so can't comment further.

@PenelopePipPip

You do realise there is an ongoing drive to normalise TW giving birth via donor uteruses. This to me seems an glaringly obvious part of that strategy.

A single case study with next to no data published by an obviously biased source is not enough for me to look at this image and think it’s safe. Where is the proof the TW in question exclusively BF even for six weeks? What follow up information do we have that the child was unaffected? Even if they weren’t, that is a single case study, it’s not enough evidence to prove by any kind of medical standard that it’s safe.

You had a very specific situation, and you made your decisions. But it’s not like for like, far from it, and there is far more sinister stuff at work here.

"I've never heard a woman say a suckling baby 'feels good' in the way these men do."

I literally just said it in the post above you. It felt a-mazing. Like a massive hit every single time. I used to go woozy and enter a slightly trancelike state each time each of my three babies latched on for at least the first 4-6 weeks. The rush was powerful and then the calm, mildly euphoric state and the buzzy tingly sensation in my nipples was remarkably similar to an orgasm. Not surprisingly because an orgasm is also just a massive dopamine rush.

I'm not embarrassed by this. Its just a neurotransmitter my brain produces in order to enable me to lay down new synaptic pathways as I bond with my baby. I am quite capable of distinguishing this lovely feeling from sexual arousal which also produces the neurotransmitters which stimulate human bonding but for different reasons.

Being able to bond with a newborn baby and being able to experience sexual arousal are chemically similar but psychologically distinct processes. Humans can enjoy both of them without dangerously collapsing them and harming the baby. And babies in my experience are extremely good at unlatching when they are full or sleepy so it can't be easy to use a newborn for gratuitous sexual gratification.

My concern with the clear revulsion at this particular photograph is that there's such widespread revulsion at breastfeeding generally.

I'm not remotely revolted my breastfeeding. I fed both my babies until they were a year old and they were EBM until the were on solids.

I'm revolted by men stimulating lactation for their own benefit.

Penelope I understand your pov and analogy; I can see how you think it plays into the anti bf message for women, but it's victim blaming.

I fed both of mine for between 3-4 years. I picked up on the increasing uncomfortableness from some. I was a receiver of the accusation that I'm doing it for myself. Simply because it's not normalised.

I will never accept that it's ok for males to do this to these children and the mothers of these children.

La Leche League (at least in the US) states explicitly that they support men who wish to breastfeed. This support is not based on identity, and does not apply to just trans women breastfeeding, but to all males.

The crucial question is, of course, to properly analyse what comes out of a male breast. It is the infant who matters here the most and the health of that infant.

Not that long ago I read about various environmental toxins found in breast milk, so it seems that researchers do study this quite a bit and could easily also analyse dad's milk.

We are always told that breastfeeding women should avoid alcohol and all medications etc.

When it is not a female person doing the breastfeeding, there seems to be much less control or disapproval. Drugs are fine etc...

Women receive the message they're revolting for bf.

Males who say they're women get applauded for taking drugs to make excretions.

That's a fucked piece of misogyny I'll happily reverse.

So weird because my experience was that it hurt like fuck at first because a newborn's latch is fierce.

Nothing a-mazing about it.

I don't think I have, @PenelopePipPip. Of course it doesn't mean 'all people', nothing ever does. You're avoiding talking about men and women, though. Mothers and fathers. People is being use as an avoidant term to disassociate mothering from females. Mothers and fathers are not the same thing. You are suggesting it's a perfectly natural desire in men. It isn't. My DH is simply a typical example.

The NHS are so thoroughly captured do you honestly believe the medical advice here is on the best interests of the infant? Knowing how BF works?

This has the feel of those mad Americans suggesting that refusing to give children hormones & surgeries will be the cause of Roe being overturned because bodily autonomy. Absolute bollocks.

for what reason?

I'm actually fuming about that NCT article.

For years the message has been that there's nothing sexual about breastfeeding to try and make breastfeeding in public more socially accepted.

Now the NCT are saying half of women find it erotic?!?!

Firstly that does not fit with mine and my friends experiences. I just don't believe it.

Secondly I think it's pretty irresponsible given my point above about public bfing.

Lastly, who the fuck found the uterine contractions caused by breastfeeding orgasmic?!! They were as erotic as period pain. As in not in the slightest !! It hurt like fuck!!

Penelope, you are straw manning when you say us women find breast feeding revolting, or whatever you actually said. We clearly don’t, but neither do we find it sexually arousing. There is a middle ground here.

You are obviously ill and I’m truly sorry for you, but the concerns of most women on here is not for themselves, but for this helpless infant who has no choice but to swallow drug induced/laced male secretions instead of the colostrum he or she (because babies are born male or female no matter what some would pretend to believe) they badly need ☹️

In this respect I am reassured by the fact that even when taking some extremely hardcore drugs my doctors were always pretty sanguine they'd pose little or no risk to any of my children. There are drugs that pose a risk when breastfeeding, opiates in particular. Obviously I have no particular knowledge about the risks associated with cross-sex hormones but in the case studies cited the TW have sought medical advice. But it is a valid concern.

@PenelopePipPip Hormonal drugs are a different kettle of fish to other medicines when it comes to infants. My doctors were sanguine about me having chemo during pregnancy (to my face, at least). But they were utterly unequivocal that I needed to stop breastfeeding before I could start tamoxifen (a drug that works on hormones).

(Side note - sounds like we've had a similar time of things. Hope you're ok.)

As in many bf threads the focus has swung to the adults rather than what's best for baby.

Berns is muttering "minds so open their brains fell out" I'm sure, where ever she is.

I can imagine there is a wonderful dopamine hit for some women. Not me, but sure, even if I've never heard it compared to a sexual pleasure before. It's still a hormonal response in a body evolved to nourish infants. A male body isn't, or it would not need months of drug and pumping protocol to achieve. Opening your mind to extended feeding (what some would call natural term breastfeeding) is great; I don't see how it equates to therefore opening your mind to males WHO ADMIT THEY GOT OFF ON IT latching a tiny newborn who needs colostrum or formula to suckle untested milk laced with cross sex sex hormones & questionable drugs.

I think there's too much obsfucation to keep arguing. I will never be convinced this is for the benefit of the feeding infant. It's validation only at best, absolutely disgusting abuse at worst.

Google DMER. Breastfeeding can be incredibly psychologically awful for a lot of women also it hurts and us exhausting if it doesn't happen easily. And no one gets a big bouquet for doing it if you do or can manage it. It's also crucially part of the fourth stage of labour. You can't hop in like a tourist to the journey of growing birthing and breastfeeding.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.mattoslactation.com/blog/2019/1/15/breastfeeding-taboo-sexual-arousal-orgasm-amp-negative-feelings%3fformat=amp

Actually sexual stimulation is one of the reasons women why do give. It's a natural reaction to oxytocin but many women don't realise that- no one ever tells them- and ignorant comments like yours won't help.

@WarriorN I think we could agree the whole thing is an inconsistent mess. I just don't think we're going to reverse the misogyny by preventing TW breastfeeding.

The misogyny isn't caused by TW. Misogyny is so deeprooted in the fabric of society TW are neither a cause or a symptom. But disgust is a key element of misogyny which is why I push back against it so hard here. To overcome misogyny we have to be better than that not the same so relying on base emotions like revulsion or disgust to justify our responses isn't enough.

Misogyny is like some kind of fungus at the core of a building. We can't even see it we just know the structures around us are rotten. People scrutinise how gender dysphoria can arise in our society, what tells us to become unsettled in our gender identity and believe that relief can only be found in reversing it are also scrutinising how the structures are rotten. But attacking people with gender dysphoria is like attacking women who subscribe to patriarchal assumptions about their role in society. Its absolutely the wrong target. The misogyny is deeper and more sinister than that and needs closer analysis - and ripping it away may require radical rebuilding too.