A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

[Soubriquet]

A website has said they have lost many followers with supporting this.

I just don’t understand why this is being promoted. If men in general were able to breastfeed children, why is this not being encouraged among married couples? Im sure plenty of men would be willing to step up and share breastfeeding with their partner.

It can’t be healthy for a baby to be fed this way, as surely the transwoman would be taking multiple type of hormones in order to remain transitioned?

Link

What part of inducing some sort of lactation in a male is natural?

I am at a loss to understand here. Males who secrete a substance from their nipples without specialist treatment often have other health issues.

And why exactly is it ‘biologically appropriate’ for a male to have this treatment to produce a substance of unknown quality that doesn’t respond to the child’s need at all and is not sustainable?

I have not seen a compelling justification yet.

There is none @Helleofabore

JFC someone's actually saying it's natural to artificially induce lactation in males?! So natural it requires a cocktail of drugs. 🤔

Either way breast-feeding promotes bonding between parent and child and improves parental MH both of which are good outcomes for women and TW.
I can't believe people still spout the bonding crap. Bonding is not based on your baby suckling at your nipple.
My experience of breastfeeding was not good. My first baby had a heart condition and by 8 weeks was not thriving as she was using more energy sucking than she got from the milk. She went on high calorie formula until she died at 9 months old. I pumped milk to give her one breast milk a day as it kept her bowels regular. It was disheartening when I prepared 4oz and she only took 2oz so the rest got chucked. I was still producing milk several months after she died despite stopping pumping when she was around 5 months as there was so little milk.
Second daughter amazing breast feeding and I remember thinking wow this is what it is supposed to be like. That lasted 2 weeks and she got oral thrush which by the time she was diagnosed breast feeding was impossible.
Third daughter I knew she had thrush at 1 week but midwife and HV refused to give any medication until they could see it at 6 weeks. I gave up breast feeding and put her on the bottle at 6 weeks.

During all my breastfeeding I was in an abusive relationship. He groped me a lot which was painful when my breasts were engorged due to the thrush babies not being able to suck. With last daughter after 2 weeks stopping BF she was so hungry so I stuck her on my breast and she drank. Abusive husband came home and said what the fuck are you doing so that was the end of that as he would not let me continue. I know he would suck the milk from my breasts when we had sex and this made me feel very uncomfortable.

Anyway my motto is a fed baby is best. Is the man who says he is a woman doing the best for the baby? Will the baby be fed properly? I don't think so.

It is true our breast fat holds on to toxins. There was a study in USA of generations of mothers who passed on DDT via their breast milk. The later generations were pregnant after DDT was banned so had not been exposed to it in their lifetime but had it passed on by their mothers breast milk. Grandmother, mother and daughter. The first baby who is breast fed baby gets all the toxins apparently.

Each tiny feed take masses of energy. Vast amounts more than bottle feeding. Colostrum is unique and filled with energy. There is no way this man is producing colostrum. This 'milk' is not suitable.

Exactly- not only is this baby not being fed, it is using up pressure resources of energy to suckle at a nipple that the adult knows won't be sustaining them. When women's milk unknowingly fails this situation results in failure to thrive, but here this person is intentionally creating that. What kind of sick person puts a child through that for their own validation?

It does seem so Rainbow.

And that our disapproval of a male doing this with said cocktail of drugs including potentially normal levels of testosterone if suppression isn’t working, is harming efforts to encourage breastfeeding. When it seems many of the posters on this thread have made the choice to breastfeed, or to try and persist for as long as they could even if it was a few weeks.

I also suspect, I could be wrong, that most posters would also support any woman’s feeding choices.

I actually don’t understand why we are also being asked to supply reasons it harms women. The point is, it is highly experimental, and no one knows what the effect is one the child. That is it. That is all it needs to be about.

It shouldn’t about making a male ‘feel good’ in anyway , it should be always focused on the needs of the baby.

I don’t understand why the lactation consultants aren’t at least questioning the efficacy of this, especially around the drugs in breastmilk and infant exposure.

A very very brief Google around the androgen blockers effects in pregnancy and breastfeeding, brings up studies scientists have done in rats and the results showed some effects in groups treated with one of the drugs.

I'm so sorry for all that you've been through @FemaleAndLearning

@FemaleAndLearning

Surely not, or else lots of people would be doing it.

It shouldn’t about making a male ‘feel good’ in anyway , it should be always focused on the needs of the baby

This is the crux of the issue. The baby is almost irrelevant to that TW, the poor thing is merely a prop to display how they womanly are.

..how womanly they are. (Where's the edit button mn?)

I don't think anyone has said it is natural to induce artificial lactation in a male. My argument was that I do not know what the distinction between natural and unnatural adds here. If there is some specific way in which man breastfeeding a child is more unnatural than feeding cows milk to a child it hasn't been demonstrated yet. That doesn't mean it is safer or better. Just that natural doesn't mean anything here. Much better to make the claim cows milk or milk from a biological woman is safer due to lower serum concentrations of hormones because at least that is testable.

Unnatural drugs stopped me dying a natural death from natural cancer. On that basis nature is dangerous and should be banned. Arguments from nature are just not useful.

Biologically appropriate is a stronger argument - but I did kind of deal with that exhaustively already.

I am bowing out of this now and deleting my MN account. I have been curious about this page for ages. I definitely identify as a GC feminist and not a TRA. Its really shocked me to see the echo chamber this page is. I hope I have not made any personally abusive comments to any individuals, and if anything I have said has hurt anyone I apologise. The responses to my comments have really distressed me, most of all the allegation that in being prepared to nurse our potentially orphaned child my husband must be some kind of paedophile. I can assure you he isn't.

I feel this level of venom towards anyone who doesn't share your immediate emotional responses is counterproductive. It drives people away. You cannot build a movement if the only people you admit are the people who see the issues in exactly the same way you do. I genuinely appreciate the interactions on this thread from people who have taken time to help me clarify my thinking or whose posts were really insightful.

Sorry you feel you have to leave because people disagree with you. I have seen no venom.

I don't normally frequent this board, it was just the title that got me interested, so your echo chamber comment doesn't really relate to me as I am an 'outsider'.

The thing is Penelope, we can all read your posts. We can all draw our own conclusions from what you wrote.

You think this is an echo chamber? Try going out in the real world and say that you think that males inducing lactation to breastfeed a baby is perfectly natural and see what the reaction is. Go on I dare you.

@PenelopePipPip I don’t know if you will see this, but I wanted to thank you for all of your thoughtful, balanced, clearly explained posts on this thread. I agree that the discussion generally has demonstrated the worst tendencies of MN to descend into an unhelpful echo chamber.

@PenelopePipPip I don’t know if you will see this, but I wanted to thank you for all of your thoughtful, balanced, clearly explained posts on this thread. I agree that the discussion generally has demonstrated the worst tendencies of MN to descend into an unhelpful echo chamber.

@PenelopePipPip I don’t know if you will see this, but I wanted to thank you for all of your thoughtful, balanced, clearly explained posts on this thread. I agree that the discussion generally has demonstrated the worst tendencies of MN to descend into an unhelpful echo chamber.

Oh dear, a technical glitch caused multiple posting, apologies

I am not sure how many more times it can be said in numerous different ways.

The drugs a transitioned male takes has not been tested for in the substance they produce. Including the sometimes ineffective and unreliable testosterone suppression and like other sex hormones, I would expect that testosterone enters the milk. What effect does this having on developing infants? Is it lasting?

A male lactating does not have the receptors and the interaction with the infant to adjust the milk as a female does. So, what is the point of breastfeeding a substance that seems to lack the nutritional value and may have significant as yet unknown effects. Formula and other options are available.

Cow milk is tested for human consumption. I doubt that a female cow will be passing the same chemicals into the milk as males. It can be easily tested and it is also pasteurized.

Using the experience of a female who is taking drugs for chemotherapy which has been tested for in the past for safety in breast milk is a false comparator because the milk of males has had little testing. And as the mother of the infant, your body can do all the adjustments the infant needs in the make up of the milk.

There is little point in applying labels to the arguments and discounting them because they don’t fit into a box some
people seem to need them to fit into to be credible.

Again, what is the benefit to the child to feed that child a substance derived from a male no matter whether that male is a transitioned male or a husband who means well? What is the benefit of the substance is not adaptive as it is when a mother feeds her infant, and has unknown nutritional value?

Exactly what is the value to the child?

I’m sorry you feel that way @PenelopePipPip as I haven’t really been discussing your comments with you but replying generally to the thread. Reading them now, I think the unanswered issue is “what is the nutritional value of male breast secretions?” as it is not in any available scientific literature. The only literature is about how secretions from male breast tissue can be induced. Of course all animal secretions contain hormones, but a mothers breast milk is constantly changing and has been frequently studied, while manufacturers have very strict guidance on what can and can’t be in formula. Babies don’t have cow milk for their first year so it’s not relevant here.

I am sorry that you have been ill and dealt with cancer. I agree that “natural” in this context is horrendous. I had a “natural” vaginal delivery with my second baby and a “natural” massive postpartum haemorrhage and I needed “unnatural” life saving treatment. It’s not on a par with your experience but I agree obsession over “natural” can miss the point some time. Whatever and however the baby is safely fed matters. So what is in a trans woman’s breast secretions? Has it been studied? How does it compare to breast milk? How does it compare to colostrum? Does it have any available immune benefit? Does it change over the course of a feed? Why is it not in the scientific literature?

Did I also see the ‘it is not many’ argument proffered here?

Not many? So a few children at risk of potential interactions with drugs used for transitioning and testosterone etc is ok? Because?

And if acceptance of this grows, and it becomes many more… will it be ok to discuss it on a feminist board then? Or will women continue to be told off and that they are mean for discussing it. This is the same argument being used right now for women’s sports. It is not many, women should not discuss it.

*The drugs a transitioned male takes has not been tested for in the substance they produce.

Exactly what is the value to the child?*

Yes, the health of the newborn baby should be paramount. It is shocking that posters here are being criticised for pointing this out.

Quite.

The reason this was attempted was nothing to do with the needs of the child, but all to do with the whims and desires of an adult male.

The comparison between this and life saving cancer treatment are ludicrous.