Should gender critical people actually be non-binary?? Or should non-binary people actually be gender critical?? I'm struggling to see the difference

[FusionChefGeoff]

After watching the 'thought experiment' video at the American Uni (sorry, can't remember the details!) I was struck by how the student who identified as non-binary basically presented the gender critical view - ie I do not agree with the gender stereotype associated with women, it's regressive and pointless, so I'm rejecting the stereotype by identifying as non-binary.

So why can't that person instead identify as 'gender critical' instead??

Or are there nuances that other non-binary people would explain that sets them apart from gender critical feminists?

I'm just struck with an 'if only' moment that if all the NBs had instead just used the GC 'label' that would give a lot less power to the rest of the movement!

I agree entirely and have been wondering the same thing for a while! Sometimes I'm just tempted to say I'm non-binary to annoy and infiltrate the LGBTQ++++++++ lot at work.

I got the impression that non binary people strongly believe in stereotypes, so eg think so strongly that women look and act a certain way that they make up a new gender because they view it that you can't just be a woman who has non stereotypical preferences.

Well, the difference is that people who claim to be non-binary claim to think that how far you identify with the masculine or the feminine is definitive of what you are, whereas gender critical people say it’s irrelevant.

Part of being non-binary is believing that other people are binary.

Gender-critical people don't believe there are any binary people.

It is a strange one, are most people by default non binary? I don’t particularly feel like a man or a woman, I’m just me. The only people who I’ve seen ever say they feel their gender is trans people. And then non binary people say they don’t feel they have a gender.

Gender free apparently comes under Stonewalls trans umbrella (along with pretty much everything else ) and I don’t have a gender, I have a sex.

I’d love to see someone who genuinely believes in all this explain why it’s completely unrelated to gender stereotypes

In religious terms, maybe you could have "unsouled people" - people who thought they didn't have a soul, unlike normal people.

They would be quite distinct from atheists.

No, because NB are fully immersed into gender ideology yet don’t fit the girl or boy boxes, but instead of the Penny dropping and realising that the boxes are unnecessary, they made another one (I mean, one of over a hundred if we believe in gender) to neatly put themselves into.

As a non believer in gender, and someone who rejects stereotypes, I don’t want a box. I’d prefer to just be me.

The Jesus and Mo comic had a great one about this just this week

Jesus and Mo

The Jesus and Mo comic had a great one about this just this week

Fantastic.

My youngest told me they were 'agender'. I briefly toyed with the idea of starting every interaction with apologies for absence and reading the minutes of the previous conversation. Then I decided I couldn't be arsed but I did apologise for laughing.

I agree, as I see it it's the difference between 'more boxes' and 'we don't need no steenkin' boxes'.

Gender critical people think that gender non-conformity is common and normal. Gender stereotypes are just stereotypes which should be broken down for the benefit of everyone.

Non-binary people think that gender non-conformity is a minority experience. And they are dependent on gender stereotypes being upheld for everyone else in order to validate the uniqueness of their experience.

Sit down OP and make a cup of tea.

a - there are two sexes. Everyone is either one or the other.

b - everyone is non-binary because non-binary means you like stuff and wear clothes.

That's it. Hope that helps

If I classified myself under the gender ideology system of "gender" I would definitely have to classify myself as non-binary.

I think that people use this system is because they want to belong under the LGBTQIA+++ umbrella. It is a fashion / youth culture.

I think the main thing is that the self proclaimed non-binary people think that everyone else conforms to regressive gender stereotypes and they are the only ones so enlightened as to not. Whereas gender critical people see all the shades of grey.

They aren't interchangeable, as they are exact opposites.

I thought about this, and there is some common ground here, in that, she was rejecting and did not identify with the stereotypes associated with being a woman. Her solution to this is to ‘opt out’ of womanhood in favour of being non binary - to me, that is regressive. I do not fit into female gender stereotypes, but I don’t think we need to - I am still a woman.

NB people buy into gender ideology hook line and sinker though. So they can't be GC.

It's rather infuriating because so many NB people are so close to "getting it". (Many aren't of course, eg those who are just faddy attention seekers).

Instead of forcing everyone around you to pretend you're neither male nor female because you don't like the stereotypes, how about you reject the stereotypes put on males and females instead?
They only reject stereotypes for them-so special-selves, rather than society at large.

You're still either a male non binary person or a female non binary person. Nothing can change that binary!

Non-binary is like "queer" (a lot of heterosexual people now call themselves "queer") where everyone wants to call themselves something to be different from other people and then can feel victimised.

When particular identities are more equal than others, such as organisations that are very focused on quotas, if you can call yourself a minority you're more likely to get certain opportunities.

Organisations like Stonewall are very much interested in what you are, not who you are.

I thought it was so utterly sad and pathetic, the way that young woman - who looked just like any female student of my generation - thought being a woman was a 'box' which I presume in her head meant a set of deeply conservative stereotypes like being a sexually submissive support animal and a fondness for lipstick and frilly princess dresses, and if you don't feel like that then you're not a proper woman. The internalised misogyny is truly breathtaking - this ideology has totally messed with their brains.

This is where the teenager and I are. Me GC, her fully into gender woo but rejecting stereotypes and just about holding onto the notion that you can't change sex.

just to add, as she’s declared herself NB, she believes she’s opted out of being a woman and rejected the gender expectations, but she still has to deal with her female sex body and all that it entails. In my opinion being NB does not reject stereotypes it simply tries to ignore them or side step them.

I wonder whether lots of people who identify as non-binary have friends who identify as trans.

If your friend is saying "I'm a trans woman because I feel like a woman inside / don't identify with male gender stereotypes / really love the feel of women's clothing / love doing make-up and going shopping," it is quite difficult to argue that they can think/feel what they like, but they are still biologically male. It would definitely end that friendship and quite possibly result in ejection from a whole social circle.

So if you accept the proposition that this person is literally female because of (largely) gender stereotypes, then you have the issue that you yourself are not a walking stereotype. What does that make you? Non-binary presents itself as a neat solution - you don't have to perform stereotypes because of your sex and you also don't torpedo your place in your friendship group. Win-win.

I told my DD I was non binary and she told me I couldn't be because I'm a mum so must be a woman
Yet I'm also as bad as the Nazis for saying women have vaginas

Very confusing

Go to Tescos. Look at hundreds of passing women. Are any of them fully gender conforming outwardly and inwardly? To what standards? Who writes these arbitrary standards? Where can they be found? How many do you have to 'fail' to not be 'of that label' any more? And who is going to come and moan at you for using the wrong label for what you're performing/thinking/feeling/choosing? (We have had some genius come here and explain that FWR is full of TM in denial because real women would embrace their oppression and role in life of being male people's support animals and maids.)

Essentially: anyone of either sex can look how they like, do what they like, like what they like. This does not make them not of the biological sex that they are, it makes them someone of that sex who does/chooses x. All great.

If they identify as that being a problem for them internally then I guess they choose to label themselves and need others to know and recognise that label. Obviously assigning labels to others yourself rather than labels they themselves have chosen, and insisting that they should adopt them based on your own need to categorise, would be rather rude and controlling and its very likely that the person wouldn't agree with you on your chosen label for them anyway.