Should gender critical people actually be non-binary?? Or should non-binary people actually be gender critical?? I'm struggling to see the difference

[FusionChefGeoff]

After watching the 'thought experiment' video at the American Uni (sorry, can't remember the details!) I was struck by how the student who identified as non-binary basically presented the gender critical view - ie I do not agree with the gender stereotype associated with women, it's regressive and pointless, so I'm rejecting the stereotype by identifying as non-binary.

So why can't that person instead identify as 'gender critical' instead??

Or are there nuances that other non-binary people would explain that sets them apart from gender critical feminists?

I'm just struck with an 'if only' moment that if all the NBs had instead just used the GC 'label' that would give a lot less power to the rest of the movement!

Not really. Non binary people think gender exists as an actual internal thing inside them, that they need to express and others need to validate.

GC people think gender does not exist other than being a limiting social construct that one should reject.

NB think sex is irrelevant, or at least subordinate, to internal gender identity.
GC recognize that women are defined by our sex and that much of the disadvantage/ oppression women face is because of the sexed bodies of men and women ( sexual violence/ physical violence/ access to reproductive healthcare, abortion/ attempts to regulate and control women’s sexuality / healthcare not recognizing differences in how men and women express illness or response to treatment and so on..

NB are rejecting their sex - because they, instead of accepting their sexed bodies are different to those of the opposite sex, are so deeply in belief and service to stereotypes that rather than rejecting the stereotypes they reject the idea of having a sexed body.

The NB want no division or recognition of sex. Makes you wonder if they think Transpeople aren't valid, as Transpeople wish to be the opposite sex.

This is so interesting as I suppose it's just another strand of the debate that only reveals just how illogical it is.

Sorry I disappeared I was musing whilst waiting for a train then had a very full on day.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions and generalisations being made here about what non-binary people are like. So, for balance - I have two non-binary colleagues. They are, I would estimate, late twenties/early thirties; both professionals (lawyers); perfectly sensible, likeable, intelligent people. They just want to be referred to as they/them, and not to be subjected to hostile comments or abuse regarding their gender non-confirming appearance. It doesn’t seem to me an unreasonable ask.

Every one of your colleagues is non-binary though. No-one conforms to the stereotypes of only one sex, or identifies with only one.

@SlightlyGeordieJohn
most of my colleagues prefer to be referred to as ‘she’ or ‘he’, and present in a way that more closely aligns with gender norms.

What I think is strange is that non binary people believe in binary, i.e. male and female. Which I thought was a big no no for gender types. Hey ho.

If it wasn’t for the demand request for they/them pronouns, how would your lawyer colleagues be any different from any other person who has a gender non-confirming appearance, say a woman in a suit like Annie Lennox in the 80s, or a man in make up like Boy George in the 80s, or anyone else who doesn’t dress stereotypically in a way that aligns with gender “norms”?

Non-binary people aren’t gender critical. They’re biological sex deniers and elevate feelings over material reality. Instead of questioning the stereotypes ascribed to each sex, and seeing strict gender roles as regressive, they have created a new identity box and claim to be neither male nor female.

@NotBadConsidering outwardly there wouldn’t be a difference (although they would still stand out in our workplace, given how conventional lawyers tend to be in their appearance). There may be differences in terms of how they feel about their sex or gender, but that’s personal and not really any of my business. I just have to remember to call them they/them. Like I said, it’s not a big thing.

So that’s the point of the thread, isn’t it? The only difference between non-binary people and the rest of the world that isn’t actually GI Joe or Barbie is non-binary people apply different internal logic to the same things as everyone else does and that’s somehow a thing.

The only real objective difference is their compelling of your language around that. You seem to be saying the only difference is pronouns.

@WallaceinAnderland I’ve never come across anyone who denied that society is largely made up of people who are regarded as (and regard themselves as) either a man or a woman. The difference in opinion is about what those labels refer to.

It’s just so narcissistic. People use pronouns to refer to sex, not gender, so why are they asking to be referred to differently?

Each of them is either make or female. Not a bit of each, not both, or neither, yet they have some need to ask colleagues to use clumsy language for some reason.

It’s no different to me asking people,to call me “your highness”.

@NotBadConsidering
the main difference from an interpersonal interaction point of view (certainly in a workplace context) is pronouns. Personally i would much prefer if we didn’t have gendered pronouns at all - whether you believe they refer to sex or to gender, why can’t we refer to a person without bringing their sex/gender into it? Anyway, if a person is uncomfortable being called he or she, I’m not going to do it - it’s just common courtesy, like getting their name right.

Similarly, I used to have a colleague called Josh. His name was actually John and that’s what his email address said, but he preferred Josh. I found it slightly confusing, but I never asked him about it, and I just did my best to remember to call him Josh. There’s no need to make a big fuss about just respecting people’s wishes.

Well pronouns are sex based, the English speaking world hasn’t consented to them being changed to gender based, it’s just been forced upon us.

But that’s by the by.

The example of your friends proves the point of the thread. The only difference between non-binary people and GC people is the reapplication of a new label after removing one based on internal logic.

If your friends are female, ask them what makes them different to anyone from the 80s who was gender non-conforming like Annie Lennox, or Boy George if male. There isn’t any.

And you know there won’t be. You certainly can’t explain it, you just think it’s whatever they think is reasonable enough. The only difference between you and the rest of us is you’re accepting of illogicality despite knowing deep down, whereas the rest of us aren’t. You know it makes no sense but think it’s decent to just shrug and go along with it. Which is your prerogative, I guess.

Well yea, there is, as if step one is using the other sex’s pronouns then step two can often be using their toilets, changing facilities, or entering their other single-sex provisions.

GC people don't chop breasts off or have gender nullification surgery as some NB people do.

I find it interesting that "gender nullification" and indeed presenting as "non-binary" is mostly young women trying to look like young teenage boys, by hiding or removing breasts, cutting hair short, wearing loose fitting trousers & shirts.

It's as if the default for human is male. So progressive.

Poor loves - it's as if they've internalised their culture's misogyny.

From what I can work out from conversations with a friend who is NB

I don't have an inner "feeling" ofbeing male or female. However I am female on account of my biology. I came to the conclusion that gender identity is nonsense.

NB friend doesn't have an inner "feeling" of being male or female. But believes this is because they are neither. They came to the conclusion they are non binary.

Does the English speaking world have official representatives who give or withhold consent on our behalf, or does someone have to come around asking everyone for their views individually?

Why do you think it’s up to me to interrogate my colleagues about their feelings regarding their sex or gender, and stand in judgement of whether their reasons for wanting to be called they/them are sufficiently robust to justify my doing so?

Does the English speaking world have official representatives who give or withhold consent on our behalf, or does someone have to come around asking everyone for their views individually?

Well precisely. So why it’s been determined for us in the last decade or so that pronouns refer to a person’s inner perception of self, or “gender”, rather than the objectiveness of sex as has been since the evolution of the English language, on the basis of what a relatively small number of people around the world have demanded, remains a mystery.

Why do you think it’s up to me to interrogate my colleagues about their feelings regarding their sex or gender, and stand in judgement of whether their reasons for wanting to be called they/them are sufficiently robust to justify my doing so?

I was talking hypothetically about actually doing it. But if you can’t ask them, can’t get a clear view on why they think the way they do, why do you think you have a sufficient argument to justify their reasoning on this thread?

Lightstoobright,

“gender non-conforming” did not appear in the Stonewall glossary the last time I looked. Presumably because it would undermine the whole trans story.

so I don’t think you can “identify” as gnc user the trans umbrella. Sigh

While wholly gender critical, I have sympathy with those who reject sexed pronouns in order to reject sexism though. There are good reasons to minimise consciousness of sex sometimes. That is why it is important to anonymise candidates’ names in exam assessments and job applications.

it is not a big step to ask people to become conscious that constantly operating a sex difference in a situation where sex should not be relevant is perpetuating sexism.

on the other hand I do want to celebrate women when they succeed on getting into male dominated arenas.

i agree though that most of those who currently claim to be non-binary are actually being sexist by believing in gender.

some languages, Mandarin for example, do not have sexed pronouns.

From GC feminism

I don’t see how anyone can have an inner feeling of what sex they are. How can anyone know that a feeling means “female” as opposed to male?

We of course have physical experiences related to our sexed bodies, but an inner sense of sex, it doesn’t sound plausible.