Should gender critical people actually be non-binary?? Or should non-binary people actually be gender critical?? I'm struggling to see the difference

[FusionChefGeoff]

After watching the 'thought experiment' video at the American Uni (sorry, can't remember the details!) I was struck by how the student who identified as non-binary basically presented the gender critical view - ie I do not agree with the gender stereotype associated with women, it's regressive and pointless, so I'm rejecting the stereotype by identifying as non-binary.

So why can't that person instead identify as 'gender critical' instead??

Or are there nuances that other non-binary people would explain that sets them apart from gender critical feminists?

I'm just struck with an 'if only' moment that if all the NBs had instead just used the GC 'label' that would give a lot less power to the rest of the movement!

Yes I’ve often thought this too. i’m a short-haired woman who wears a variety of different things, masculine, feminine and neither, does all the DIY, plays a stereotypically male instrument, but also sews and bakes, goes out without make-up, and has spent most of my life totally failing to get in a feminine-stereotyped box and instead just do what I like. As such I’m a lot more “non-binary” than most of the people I encounter who claim to be NB.

I do think NB is sometimes wisely picked by young people, especially girls, to jump on the trans bandwagon without having to pretend to be a boy or start doing drastic things to their bodies (though I know some do anyway). It’s not fitting gender stereotypes - the cool version. Instead of being bullied for it. Or it’s just trans without the commitment. As such I kind of am glad it’s there as an option as it’s probably saving a lot of girls from the worst excesses of irreversible medicalisation.

and yes pointing out we’re all non-binary is a good way to encourage and understanding of gender and what it actually is.

My 11 year old grasped it easily enough when she just started high-school: 'Everybody is non-binary'.

Said with a shrug after a chat with a group of year 7 girls who, apparently, were all trans and non-binary.

She agreed that it was unnecessary and it just means 'people'.

Well I think if we all declared our NB identities (as we would technically all be NB as except those few rare people who do fit in the gender stereotype boxes) it would make the label ever so much less attractive.

Non-binary is like ordering an expensive item from the menu when the bill is going to be shared.

It annoys everyone even though they may not say so and it only 'works' if not everyone does it.

There is sex, which is binary and immutable, and then there is personality, which is different for everyone.

It was in this video by Peter Boghossian, who was in the middle of an experiment when a group of young people started abusing him from afar, then came down to talk to him. The OP is right, the “non-binary” person comes so close to getting it with “their” explanation:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zxvyeZa1YSI

And then one of their mates uses the “wrong” pronouns…

This!
Do female NB really think that by declaring themselves NB society sees them any different?

Boghossian used the wrong pronouns and then they all jumped on him. It only existed for this "gotcha" moment so then they could claim he was causing all of this emotional harm etc.

They only do it for special treatment and unfortunately people indulge them.

It would make more sense if you said I'm a NB woman, or a NB man, i.e. I'm a woman who has a lot of masculine traits and vice versa. I would recognise myself in that.

Unfortunately its TR/Stonewall definition means that you are neither sex, which puts us in unicorn land and means that NB lad could demand to use the changing rooms in Monsoon.

It also means one day you can say you are a woman and the next a man, or even moment to moment, which is exactly what the girl in the vid said and expect to be treated as such.

I mean that's mimicking split personality disorder at worst and completely unreasonable at best. I can see the attraction for teens, but adults indulging in this are a bit precious.

This.

And gender critical people understand that it is your SEX that affects how other people/ society treats you, and you can't identify out of that. And that is why GC women continue to work to fight sexism.

Essentially, being non-binary does not in anyway address the sexism the NB person faces or that any other woman faces.

'Non-binary' is a pretty stark example of an utterly wrong headed analysis and solution.

I told my DD I was non binary and she told me I couldn't be because I'm a mum so must be a woman.

Joking aside, this does come across as kind of ignorant/intolerant. There are transmen who are or have been mothers, nonbinary people who've been and are mothers or fathers, and quite a few transwomen who've transitioned a bit later in life after having and raising children as a father. Caitlyn Jenner's daugher (for example) was harrassed for referring to Caitlyn as "Dad" and even after Caitlyn intervened and explained that that was the relationship between them and they were both happy with the terms, the random non-trans stranger identifying as an "ally" knew better ...🙄

Some people don't realise they're nonbinary (or trans) until after they had children. Some didn't have the words to describe their experience or identity until later, or weren't able to get theraputic help or a diagnosis, or knew but economic, emotional, cultural, etc. factors stopped them from coming out or transitioning until later in life. And some out trans and/or nonbinary people choose to have a child and the only/most practical way to do it is by becoming pregnant or inseminating a partner.

What people who announce they are 'non-binary' fail to see, is that the moment they announce they are 'non-binary', they set up a 'binary'.

AND they push everyone else into those sexist stereotypes of what they believe 'binary' means.

Being gender critical would free everyone of those stereotypes, being nonbinary (if it even worked which it would not) would only free a tiny group, leaving all other women to the wolves, for example. And the nonbinary seem fine with that!

So the are not feminists. I have written before that they think they are writing a private contract with sexism and misogyny, telling the predators to look elsewhere for their prey ('women', in their view are all Barbies and Stepford Wives). But those contracts will never be honoured, of course.

I do think all this is sad, like trying to buy the fruits of feminism without doing any of the work.

Alex Drummond once said that h•• decision to be a transwoman with a beard was expanding the bandwidth of womanhood or something. So Alex lives h•• life, with the intention of showing us all that women may look like Alex.

A female who identifies as non-binary is in direct opposition to Alex, whether conscious of it or not. Usually not. The reasoning - I am not a woman because I do x, y and z and never do a, b and c - actually shrinks the bandwidth of what a woman can be. Or it does if we believe it.

This article by M. K. Fain is interesting in terms of the negative impacts of individual girls/women identifying as nonbinary, suggesting it is (or can be) the kind of "personal solution" that progressives and leftists (and Marxists) used to reject on principle. None of us is free until all of us are free.

I think people who wang on about their gender have either too much time on their hands or mistake having a gender with having a personality. Like hipsters and beards.

I agree with this.

marking so I can find later. I am totally confused by this issue and this appears to be the only place one can discuss it without being yelled at.

sorely tempted!

Everyone’s non-binary. No-one identifies with only male or only female stereotypes.

There’s something very strange about announcing that you are, or making it out to be a special feature.

It seems in many cases to be purely”look at me” performative; people wanting to be edgy.

Oh

How so? Gender critical means believing that there is no innate gender (only innate physical sex) and that we should not be pressured into confirming with or identifying with gender stereotypes.

Non-binary means not identifying with gender stereotypes. It’s literally living the way that GC people do.

I have a 17-yr-old DS and for the life of me, often can't understand what he is on about. We had a big argument over women-only spaces the other day and had to agree to disagree. Obviously like many young people trying to be kind, he does not understand why women open their safe spaces to men. DH gets it though. There just seems to be a huge generation gap on this. He does have trans friends and perhaps thinks that all transwomen are as kind as his friends?

Ugh. He does not understand why women DON"T want to open their safe spaces to men.