All Trans Shortlists?

[pop91]

Hi,
Trans person here.
I've posted here before with a not so great interaction hoping this one won't be so toxic😅

Question relating to All Women shortlists for example in politics and the inclusion of transwomen:

Firstly, I actually agree that trans-women shouldn't be on the normal all-women shortlist in almost the same way I don't think someone who's only got one BAME grandparent should be on an all BAME shortlist.

For me, it doesn't provide the best position to have people not fully understanding of the issues to be at the forefront of tackling them with all the knowledge present. So, for example, Lisa Nandy technically has mixed heritage but experiences life largely as a white person so can't for example tackle colourism as well as someone more visibly BAME. Likewise, a trans woman can't tackle period poverty as effectively!

But I understand that's not the same as the GC position of the trans woman not being a real woman so effectively to be considered automatically ineligible for GCs.

However, on the flip side, I don't believe non-trans people can tackle the issues for trans people as effectively as a trans person could! which is why I believe there should be at least some All-trans shortlists, especially in areas with higher percentages of trans people, like London for example.

Currently, there is only one trans person in parliament and he has only just come out and soon plans to leave politics, likely leaving parliament with zero trans people after the next general election. Effectively leaving trans people with zero national political representation again - obviously from my standpoint that is distressing!

Withstanding the GC argument that Trans people aren't real or that it's all gender ideology and that therefore there is no need for a Trans MP - I understand that is the opinion many here hold however as you will know most Trans people believe their identity to be real and not an ideology, myself included and therefore ask for different answers. TLDR: I know you believe Trans is all ideology but we don't and saying so won't change my mind or further this discussion🙂

So my questions:

1. Would GC's then protest All-Trans shortlists if trans women were specifically not included on the All-women shortlists?
2. Would GC's still protest if it was made clear that All-Trans shortlists would only be used in seats held by male MP's and not already using an All-Women shortlist?

A question that's not strictly relevant but I've asked other trans people and you might find interesting:

1. Should there then be separate All-Trans shortlists for trans men, trans women and non-binary people?

I think you'd have to define trans though as there are so many genders you could fill the whole House of Commons and still not have all the genders covered.

I think there's a huge difference between trans men and trans women attracted to men and trans women attracted to women.

There are lots of trans people who don't support medicating children. How would you make sure you got someone who agreed with you?
And with the conversion therapy- not everything drafted, consulted on and debated becomes law, that's how it works.
As for detransitioning, sometimes MPs are elected standing for one party then cross the floor or leave to be independent. Many don't get re-elected but it could be a fair while that they are in the role and not representing the party they said they would. So I guess in this very hypothetical situation you'd just have to put up with it until the next election.

I'm British!

You do realise that to refer to people as BAME is highly offensive?

You have a trans MP. You keep on saying that you don't. Just because you don't personally like him doesn't mean that he isn't trans - whatever "trans" means, anyway. He's as "trans" as anyone else out there, whether you like it or not, so there it is, you already have your (over)representation . Enjoy.

@pop91

Why are you scared to go out?

What do you understand trans conversion therapy to be?

^^just out of interest on those.

You know what, we've had government in this country since the 15th century and women have only been allowed to be part of it for about 100 years and are still woefully underrepresented. So sorry, while I'm not opposed to all-trans whatever, I'm not actually that arsed either. Because I've yet to see a cogent argument about what trans people need that they don't currently have that will be changed by this. I don't see you've articulated anything in particular that you think a trans MP might be better at representing?

And with respect, your comment neither are trans people who I can tell you are terrified right now - I'd love to know why we as 'GC' are expected to just accept that this is fact and rally, but when women say the same, we are roundly ignored. You are protected under hate crime legislation due to your trans identity. Women are not, even though we are killed at a rate of two a week in domestic violence.

So yeah, I know it's not a competition, but I'm sick to the back teeth of it. Don't pretend like 'GC' have ANY power to 'agree' to your all-trans lists.

Apologies for the rant. But like I said - sick to the back teeth.

@pop91 the problem you have is you have listened to and believed the lies that stonewall and mermaids are selling the EHRC guidance of legal exclusions is not really new they are just reiterating the law that stonewall has willfully misrepresented. As for the conversion therapy bill surely you agree that it would be wrong to pass a rushed poorly worded and defined bill that could result in harming trans people.
As for bans on medication for trans kids (I assume that you mean puberty blockers) they are not being banned in the UK yet but considering that they have potentially life long harmful consequences for children including sterility, lack of sexual function and osteoporosis it is correct that we have a conversation about how safe and effective they are as all current research shows that they don't do anything positive for children with gender dysphoria.
I am truly sorry that you are afraid to leave your house but that is not something that gender critical women are trying to cause many of us like myself had what would now be called gender dysphoria as a teenager and with the help of some very compassionate psychiatrists came to understand why we felt the way we did and to accept who and what we are. We understand that therapy will not help everyone and some will still need to transition but it will help most children and even for those who still go on to transition it will help them in their later life to be happier and more rounded people. I don't want to harm any trans person I just don't believe that children should be making these sorts of irreversible decisions.
Perhaps you should question the people who are telling you to be afraid of gender critical women and ask yourself why they are doing it and who does it help

It’s all about the trans isn’t it.

I'm literally BAME.
Yes, I get to decide if someone is BAME enough to represent me.

Would an all-male parliament work If people can represent people who aren't like them?

I want more poor MP's so that doesn't work either! rich people in politics are literally the problem.

No, if you are GC then I wouldn't trust you to support Trans peoples in parliament.

What about puppies?

@pop91 if you identify as British, are in the UK and eligible to vote here then why did you post about the situation in the US as if that was relevant to the UK?

You're limiting how often you go out because you are scared - of who? And what? And where?

MPs are representatives not delegates, so can happily give two fingers to the views of their constituents.

oh I see OP, who is going to tell the electorate their trans MP isn’t trans enough to be on the short list? Is there a selection panel for who passes the ‘right kind of trans’ test?

Females don’t have to pass a ‘female’ sexed body test to be on a short list. That is the only requirement for those type of ‘shortlist’.

Are you going to dictate the ‘right type of trans person’? Isn’t that rather concerning. That Debbie Hayton would not be on the shortlist because of gate keeping?

MPs are representatives not delegates, so can happily give two fingers to the views of their constituents

Sure. If they don’t want another term.

I know that you’ve declined to provide your own definition of “trans” and therefore who would be suitable for a trans only shortlist but, if I were to go along with the concept how would you know that someone was eligible? If “people are who they say they are” and “acceptance without exception” are the rules that we must follow surely anyone could say they were eligible and no one could argue against that? I simply can’t see how you can have shortlists based upon something so subjective as a trans identity vs the objective observable female only shortlists. I do though appreciate your view that transwomen should not take away from female opportunity for representation.

Secondly, and again referencing the “acceptance without exception” , how do we know that there is only one trans MP currently? Surely a number could be trans/non-binary and simply not have announced this yet?

Yes, I've been through trans conversion therapy.
It takes various forms with the goal of making someone conform to their biological or de-transing someone.

I'm not expecting you as a GC to rally round - I'm expecting you to do the opposite.

I'm not asking you to agree I'm questioning if it would be protested.

You have a trans mp, surely to represent the percentage of trans people in the UK you should have between 0 and 1?

How many MPs are women, and how many women are in the cabinet, is it not about 35pc? After years and years of campaigning by women it's still low and women are still mocked and sexually harassed in these roles.

No, if you are GC then I wouldn't trust you to support Trans peoples in parliament.

What about me? I'm GC and non-binary.

Miranda Yardley? Debbie Hayton? Kristina Harrison? Fionne Orlander?

I'm done. I tried - I really did try 😓

I didn't know BAME was offensive! Ironically, prior to this post I don't believe I've ever used it.

I didn't know Debbie Hayton was ashamed of being trans. In fact, I'd doubt it, but I'm prepared to be corrected.

I don't think being trans is something to be proud of. I don't mean that as a pejorative, it should be nothing to be ashamed of either. Surely, it's how you behave and treat others that count? Those pampers in m/cr should be ashamed but of their behaviour not of their tran-ness.

I don't care what colour, sex, gender ,religion, my MP is but I will never ,ever vote for anyone who cannot accept that the title of woman applies ONLY to an adult, biological, female human and that, whatever gender you choose to identify as, you accept that sex can never, ever be changed.

What happens when we all actually declare ourselves as the non-binary people we are because we don’t identify with the gender we have been told matches our sexed bodies? Because we aren’t that other word that has attempted to be forced on us either.

Will we all have a chance to get on the trans shortlists as NB people?

Oh I didn’t catch your post Magnolia. Snap!!!

I am finding it wryly amusing that woman are castigated and abused for gatekeeping womanhood by not agreeing that TW are women and here we have a trans person gatekeeping transhood and applying a very strict purity to it. It's like a Monty Python sketch.